I need to get this off my chest - there is simply too much "stuff" in this game, and I think it hurts more than helps

[SoundsOfNight]

Ok, so I love these Pathfinder games, but there is this naggy itch while playing them, that there is simply too much STUFF.

Now before you go into - "well maybe YOU don't need, but we do!", well I'm not looking at it from that angle, I'm looking at it from:

1. Quality of stuff
2. Balancing
3. Opportunity cost

For example, as a spellcaster, I have a gazillion spells halfway through the game - my class spells, my mythic spells, scrolls, wands, etc...now, it becomes a freakin' nightmare to manage - buffs, swift actions, debuffs, attacks - all within the confines of the combat system which allows a few actions per turns. It's just too much imho, and it leads to my biggest gripe with these Pathfinder games - a lot of stuff straight up doesn't work!! or it works, but it's crap!

I think if Owlcat was more selective in the content (spells, abilities, etc.) then balancing would be such an astronomical feat, and the player would see an increase in the quality (and utility) of stuff, versus what we have now. The general feel of the game would be smoother.

I know some of this is hamstrung by Pathfinder rules and whatnot, but do we really need - Remove Blindness, Fear, Paralysis, Curse, Bad Breath, Stinky Feat, Stink Eye, Evil Eye, etc...seriously, it's just.so.much.stuff. to constantly juggle, plus the story, plus the characters, plus the Crusade. And to top it off, you can't fully trust that the stuff is actually working correctly!

I will point you to an aRPG that is the epitome of quality over quantity - Bloodborne. A select number of weapons, builds, spells, items, etc., all which have significant impact to your experience. Now ofcourse I'm not suggesting Pathfinder is slimmed down to this extent, but I strongly, passionately feel that the Quantity over Quality approach here is really hurting the overall experience for players and devs alike.

*takes a huge breath* thanks for reading! what yall think?

[Conquista]

its great for replayability, you don't need all the buffs or debuffs on one playthrough, so pick the one you like and roll with it

[SoundsOfNight]

Originally posted by Conquista:

its great for replayability, you don't need all the buffs or debuffs on one playthrough, so pick the one you like and roll with it

An important part of what I said is that there are lots of abilities that don't work, not sure if working, or suck. I think that's a major negative.

[seeker1]

There's so much stuff in the game, it's impossible to try out much of it on a single playthrough.

Now maybe that's a positive. If you enjoy replaying a game. In part, I enjoy that because your choices in a good RPG will make things play out differently, and I'm not a mad completionist, but I call myself an experientialist. I want to experience as much as I can of what the game offers. Abilities or encounters. And I can see how things play out differently, too. It's one reason, despite other frustrations that are ongoing (yes it's not bug free, no the bugs are not show stoppers; other things that are intended can still be frustrating) ... I've played it through three times.

25 freaking classes. 12 possible companions. You do the math. If you want to try them all out, you either a) have to respec companions (out of their class requires a mod) b) do a lot more than 3 playthroughs c) do some mad ass multiclassing or d) make mercs. Thanks to the magic of mercs, I didn't make an alchemist main, but I did try out an alchemist merc. Sharky McBomber remains a fave. D & D isn't new to me, but Pathfinder system is, and I never played an alchemist in a CRPG (or anything else) before. Sharky was fun.

My point being, so much stuff encourages replayability. Some people enjoy that. I can see the counterpoint, frustration might frustrate you out of wanting to make a second go.

I agree it's a bummer if you want to try out lots of stuff, and some of it isn't working properly.

[Shoat]

This is a pen&paper RPG campaign adapted for PC. Owlcat has already HEAVILY cut down on the amount of "stuff" as you call it in many areas of the game, and going much further than that as you demand would make it pointless to adapt an existing system - at that point play a different game that makes it's own original system, like pillars of eternity or tyranny, if you do not want the breadth of options and choices that a pen&paper RPG has to offer.

And the comparison to bloodborne is ridiculous. Bloodborn is a fast action combat game, this is a turnbased tactics RPG - the two games have nothing in common other than both being good games at what they set out to do.

From what it seems you either went into this game with very unrealistic expectationts of what it was (obviously not the kind of game for you) or are intentionally attempting to stir up conflict here.

[El_Bastardo]

Ok so what do you do when you get permanently blinded and have no way to remove it? When the enemy has such a high AC that you can't hit him, and you don't have Evil Eye etc. to lessen his AC?
Alot of spells are situational, i will give you that, but i'd like to see you get rid of a Baleful Polymorph with DC 38 or healing your entire party of Blindness without any spells, that remove that.

Ofc, if you play on story mode, nothing will hit you anyway. So the higher the difficulty, the more you'll need all this small things, that in the end make the difference between reloading 20 times or continuing with the game.

[seeker1]

Originally posted by El_Bastardo:

Ok so what do you do when you get permanently blinded and have no way to remove it?

Some things are odd, it's not always obvious what the counterspell is. I keep expecting DIspel Magic to remove bad spells on my companions, but no, in most cases, there's something else you need, like Break Enchantment, or Remove Curse, or Restoration, or maybe it's Greater Restoration, or Force Reality ... and or ... I agree that can get frustrating. "Back in the day" if it was a spell, Dispel Magic removed it. No swiss army knife.

The one thing I can tell you. Very little is actually "permanent". "Permanent" blindness isn't and even if you don't remove it, it like 90% of conditions gets removed by resting. "Permanent" blindness like many other conditions is just telling you it won't wear off in 1 round or 1 turn or whatever the duration is - it's just there until you rest.

Resting in this game is like rebooting your PC. Very little it won't fix. Negative levels, ability drain, blindness, explosive diahhrea. Although it won't bring NPCs back from the dead, petrification, or (as I found) being polymorphed. That said, yes, the whole darn abyssal corruption mechanic IS there to prevent you from doing it constantly.

When the enemy has such a high AC that you can't hit him, and you don't have Evil Eye etc. to lessen his AC?

One hint - again I agree it's not obvious unless you know the system - if you can't hit them with weapons, you often can with touch spells, hint hint hint. Their "touch AC" is different.

Ofc, if you play on story mode, nothing will hit you anyway.

Toybox CAN, if you want, basically prevent you from ever getting just about any negative condition, like ability drain or negative levels, and so you never have to deal with it.

I have many times been tempted to hit that checkbox. So far, no.

[RJM]

I agree with you that in both games so far, Owlcat have chosen to include more material than they can successfully test both pre-launch and in the first few months post-launch as all the mass user testing reveals more flaws.

I know many in the community want more classes, more feats, more spells, more mythic paths etc but I believe Owlcat would have been better off pacing themselves. I'd love to have the entire Pathfinder system in a single game, but I'd rather have incremental 20% or even 10% steps working perfectly each time that builds up to a full system over 5-10 games than a larger chunk that's full of bugs in the game mechanics. Bugs in the actual adventure are inevitable and unique to each game, but the actual Pathfinder system itself should work.

[darkholyPL]

I love being spoiled for choice, but I'd also like said choice to work... so in that regard I do agree, there is a lot of 'stuff' but a lot of said stuff also doesn't work, or works but not as it should.
However this is a Pathfinder game, and I'm pretty sure getting the license for Paizo included some demands that needed to be met. Like implementing the rules, spells ect like how they are in PnP.
I obviously don't know exactly what Owlcat and Paizo signed on, but I know that in general if you want to get a license, you need to play ball.

[seeker1]

Just one other point. I like action RPGs for what they are. Diablo is an ARPG. And I like it for what it is. You can get through Diablo by basically hitting 4 buttons over and over, 2 of them most often, and maybe occasionally 1 or 2 others.

I also like this style of more complex CRPG, and for a while since I thought this style was dead, I'm glad it isn't. I agree complexity can err on the side of so much it's overwhelming, I've heard (though never played) Dwarven Fortress has this issue. I also agree when you make something this complex, GUI is key, and we can debate if players have the best GUI for managing the complexity. There are threads on that.

MMORPGs are also increasingly going the "A' route, too.

[amills1]

I will admit it did get a bit overwhelming. I played through as an Azata and I didn't even use half of the extra spells that I was given - possibly because I was a ranger and not a dedicated spellcaster. Even ignoring that, there are a lot of things you can miss in the game if you don't talk to certain people at just the right moment.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by DragonSoundxSG:

For example, as a spellcaster, I have a gazillion spells halfway through the game - my class spells, my mythic spells, scrolls, wands, etc...now, it becomes a freakin' nightmare to manage - buffs, swift actions, debuffs, attacks - all within the confines of the combat system which allows a few actions per turns. It's just too much imho, and it leads to my biggest gripe with these Pathfinder games - a lot of stuff straight up doesn't work!! or it works, but it's crap!

There's a good reason why 99% of the spells are there, even if some feel like "crap" under many circumstances. But they're not going away.

So I think it's up to the player to have an idea of what they want each character to do, especially casters. Have a plan for bosses, for groups of enemies, and for easier fights. Have a backup plan or two and ignore the rest. Put all your buffs on the side bar or use a mod to manage buffs. There are steps you can take to be more prepared and organized so you're not spending time in combat wondering what to do.

[mosspit]

@OP

Again, it is a case that this game isn't for everyone.

There might be spells that might seem useless to you. Because you have a build that doesn't need them. Those "useless" spells or items could support another build that other gamers are experimenting on.

Ppl who play souls-like game (based on your example of Bloodbourne) want certain things, and they might not find the same things in D&D-like game. Different genres, and you seem to gravitate towards rogue-like ARPG. Which is fine, but it is isn't this game.

[provokastoras]

^^ you ll probably be surprised... they already banned 95% or more of the spells in tabletop.

[IceLancer]

Ehhh.
I don't know what to tell you man.
I have been around D&D for SO long that i know every spell description by heart and i love every single one of them.
As for you as starter... i think i can see how it can be overwhelming , but its just that, overwhelming because u are starter, but it really isn't it just takes bit getting into it.
It all comes down to one thing , you are either up for such genre or you aren't no need to feel bad about it if u aren't.
I grow up with this games. There is nothing better for me then to join my friends on private RP NVN server and burn couple hours.
Thinking more about it, i think thats what younger generation is actually missing. They got thrown into D&D without "introduction" may i call it? That i had with old games. I remember my first time , man it was so overwhelming and on top UI wasnt so fancy as it is today , so scrolling through spells was a nightmare at the time.
Hm i went off topic.
I guess what i am trying to say is...don't worry there are plenty fish in the sea, choose your fish and enjoy what ever suits you. D&D ain't gonna change, it can evolve but its a style and style either suits you or it doesn't.
Have fun!

[SoundsOfNight]

These games are for me. That's why I've been playing them for 20 years. And the Pathfinder ones feel the most bloated and messy and that's why I created this topic.