pathfinder illusion school sucks.

[thkiwow]

I get that it could be very great. currently I have the magician's ring, another staff to add +1DC to will saves, I am an arcanist so that's a natural +2DC to the save. plus azata have a superpower that forces enemies to roll TWICE. with persistant spell they'll roll FOUR times. if I'll add to that expended arsenal(illusion) assuming it indeed stacks I'll get another +5 to DC for all illusion saving throws. culminating in a bloody +8DC TO ALL ILLUSION SAVING THROWS, and forcing enemies to roll FOUR TIMES, besides that.

HOWEVER all illusion spells force the target to roll twice, either would dispell the effect. the other illusion spells have nothing to do with casters, even though displacement is epic it's better on fighters. but casters have it anyways. what the hell is even going on with phantasmal petrification? will the spell not work if the enemy succeeds at either one of the saves????!! the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ 1d3 wisdom damage is not worth mentioning. the real ♥♥♥♥ thing is that those saves target different attributes, like: "oh, your fortitude sucks? well, let me roll you a d4 saving throw for will to see if you negate this weak effect? wow, that's bad too. you don't? oh, fall asleep and take no damage this round. nothing serious. wait, someone has negated it so it gives you another chance with a +4 to the save. you did it! good job~".

why is this so underpowered and bloody debuffed. It's hard to calculate chances with 2 saving throws and persist, I have no idea how to go about it with four. you basically launch the spell and 'hope for the best' knowing the best won't happen.
and don't get me started on shadow spells. they don't even seem to work regardless of what you're doing. tb it's such a cool concept but it's ruined.

[PuppYofDOOM]

At higher levels most of ur spells are 80% real. With mythic shadows ur spells are 20%more real.


Weird and that phantasmal assasin thingie. Consistently kills... Everything on the screen for me on core.

[PuppYofDOOM]

The wisdom damage can kill ppl and thry can be knocked down it also makes it harder for them to save vs spells

[darkholyPL]

Why do they suck? Well mostly because those can be used against you as well. And we dont want the players to feel sad, now do we?
If you look at spells in general in DnD and other tabletop rpg's you will notice a trend. With each new edition of the rules, the spells get more and more neutered. Finger of death used to be save or die, so was disintegrate and so on, now it's save or dmg. And it's not just spells either.
The more popular rpg systems have gone very care bearish. I guess the soy boys can't take their characters dying very well, and might need a safe space and counseling after, or whatever *shrugs*

[Gorwe]

Some spell schools just aren't as good here as they'd be otherwise. Illusion and Divination are the best examples of this. Both are rather rudimentary in their combat application, but game breakingly OP otherwise. Divination especially. Imagine just being able to divine Powerball or Eurojackpot. Illusion at least has Shadow Evo / Weird. Enchantment is also quite finnicky. Even with Undead and Serpentine Arcana, there are simply "Mind Immune" enemies. Come to think, a feat of the type "ignore Immunity: Mind" should probably exist. Ascendant Enchantment or whatever.

[thkiwow]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Why do they suck? Well mostly because those can be used against you as well. And we dont want the players to feel sad, now do we?
If you look at spells in general in DnD and other tabletop rpg's you will notice a trend. With each new edition of the rules, the spells get more and more neutered. Finger of death used to be save or die, so was disintegrate and so on, now it's save or dmg. And it's not just spells either.
The more popular rpg systems have gone very care bearish. I guess the soy boys can't take their characters dying very well, and might need a safe space and counseling after, or whatever *shrugs*

it's really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. especially when you've got spells like 'ressurection'. people shouldn't be bothered by death for a while.

[BlueBangkok]

Illusion specialization is quite good even in the early game (and becomes amazing in late game). Phantasmal putrefaction (that's how it's spelled by the way) saved my hide lots of times.

[thkiwow]

Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

Illusion specialization is quite good even in the early game (and becomes amazing in late game). Phantasmal putrefaction (that's how it's spelled by the way) saved my hide lots of times.

english is weird. anyways, I'm not saying it can't be great, again, I'm literally laying out an overpowered build of +8DC(you can probably even get to +10 or +12) and 4 repeating saves. add to that a quicken metamagic wand and you've got 8 repeating saves against bosses. or maybe just quicken metamagic and +5DC. idc. though you half that so that is really 4. that IS overpowered as ♥♥♥♥. even a 5%(1/d20) chance repeated 8 times is like 34% chance of success. which is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ third. now get ten (2/d20) and you've got nearly 60%. and god have mercy on deskari's soul if it reached 25%. it's like hitting the demon lord with a dildo. humiliating is what it is.

[xilix69]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Why do they suck? Well mostly because those can be used against you as well. And we dont want the players to feel sad, now do we?
If you look at spells in general in DnD and other tabletop rpg's you will notice a trend. With each new edition of the rules, the spells get more and more neutered. Finger of death used to be save or die, so was disintegrate and so on, now it's save or dmg. And it's not just spells either.
The more popular rpg systems have gone very care bearish. I guess the soy boys can't take their characters dying very well, and might need a safe space and counseling after, or whatever *shrugs*

100% agree. I pointed this out during PlayTesting for 5e D&D before release. Of course, I was ignored & not invited to do any further Testing after pointing that out. I run 2e, where Mobs WILL kill you.

[Thorba]

Originally posted by PuppYofDOOM:

At higher levels most of ur spells are 80% real. With mythic shadows ur spells are 20%more real.


Weird and that phantasmal assasin thingie. Consistently kills... Everything on the screen for me on core.

Made the same experience, i thought that illusion would suck but now with this phantasmal spell+ the area effect nenio became a real killer (even a lot of the bigger mobs get killed with only a single activation).

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by thkiwow:

what the hell is even going on with phantasmal petrification?

It's about the strongest AoE in the mid-game. Nenio pretty much wins battles on her own opening with this spell. I guess you only start to realise just how strong it is when an enemy Illusionist uses it on you

Anyways after hitting them with that Nenio can start throwing the Phantasmal Killers around, Ouch! Illusion sucks? Do me a favour.

[t]

Weird and Phantasmal Killer make most encounters a joke.

[Memnarch]

iIIusion sucks in Act 1. Once you get your schooI DC feats Iater and +4-5 IeveI speIIs you wiII just as strong as Enchantment.

And Greater Shadow Evocation + Conjuration+Shades Iets you be a nuke WITH iIIusion DCs, which is huge tbh.

And you can even put on mythic Ascendancy feats which fuIIy ignores enemy immunities.

Its stiII counted as energy damage done as Iong as the initiaI save is faiIed.