Best Damage spells

[Belegar]

I know about Scorching ray, hellfire ray, and phantasmal killer/weird, but are there any alternatives for damage that can somewhat compete.

[Frostfeather]

There are many threads here that talk about how to this. But just a few ideas, including Kineticists even though they're not technically using spells:

- Merged Angel using Wall of Light (bugged to do damage twice when cast), Bolt/Storm of Justice, etc

- Merged Lich doing LIch stuff (I'm saving my Lich run for when the game is less buggy so I don't know this stuff yet, but I know it can be very effective)

- Since we're also talking about instant death, Azata that uses Dismissal with Favorable Magic/Zippy Magic

- Azata that uses Kinetic Blasts, Chain Lightning and/or Battering Blast with Zippy Magic

- Blade Barrier (bugged to do damage twice when cast and now includes a buggy knockback effect that can be in your favor - enemies will try to run though it again. A single Blade Barrier can do impressive damage when used well and when supported with force damage gear)

- Blue Flame Kineticist that uses Wall

- Literally any Kineticist that uses Deadly Earth/Cloud (they're bugged too)

- A build that stacks spell damage from multiple dragon Bloodlines can get better damage out of many different spells

And some general relevant info that some people may not be aware of: The damaging ones are often made even better with a level of Fire Elemental Bloodline Sorcerer (or this Bloodline added through mythic) to convert non-fire, non-force damage to fire because of the gear that supports it. For the best result, combine with Flame Curse for +50% damage.

Also, it's critically important to actually use your metamagic and rods, and combine them when you can. And abilities like Sorcerous Reflex will help you pump out more damage much more quickly.

[Sotanaht]

Trickster "ray of halberds" hits up to 10 times per cast, each hit rolling any sneak attack damage you have. A trickster/arcane trickster has one of the highest single-target damage options in the game using Ray of Halberds twice in one round for roughly 4000 damage total (average)

It's worth mentioning Ice Storm and Volcanic Storm as AOE options. While they won't do as much damage per target as Scorching Ray, they do 2x sneak attacks (half bludgeoning, half fire/cold) and have a 40ft burst, which basically covers the entire screen and then some. Also no saving throw or hit roll. Only works as an arcane trickster of course (surprise spells required).


Naturally none of this is supposed to work. Ray spells are only supposed to roll sneak attacks once per cast (in spite of them rolling to attack for each ray, I hate this rule but it exists). Multiple damage type spells should NOT be rolling full sneak attack dice for each damage type (so Volcanic/Ice storm should only be 1x sneak attack if that). Also Deadly Earth and Cloud both do 8x the damage on cast and 4x the damage per round that they are supposed to by RAW. Also Ice Storm and Volcanic storm are only supposed to be 20ft bursts. These "bugs" have been around since Kingmaker was first released, so I doubt any of them are going to get fixed.

[Gregorovitch]

I'd say Chain Lightening is pretty good. I gave Nenio the mythics Expanded Arsenal (Evocation) and Ascendant Element (Electricity) plus the standard feats Elemental Focus (Electricity) and Greater Elemental Focus (Electricity) round about L11-15 after she got her Illusion stuff.

Not every monster is susceptible to it of course but a lot are. When they are she seems to do about 50-100 dmg per target with it a lot of the time and nearer the 100 when I switch on her maximise rod. Which given the spell can zap up to 20 monsters per cast is pretty much the definition of a crap ton of damage I'd say. It's obviously better at clearing adds than it is dealing with bosses but it certainly clears adds efficiently unless they're highly resistant or immune to it. The fact that it only targets enemies is a big plus IMO.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

I'd say Chain Lightening is pretty good. I gave Nenio the mythics Expanded Arsenal (Evocation) and Ascendant Element (Electricity) plus the standard feats Elemental Focus (Electricity) and Greater Elemental Focus (Electricity) round about L11-15 after she got her Illusion stuff.

Not every monster is susceptible to it of course but a lot are. When they are she seems to do about 50-100 dmg per target with it a lot of the time and nearer the 100 when I switch on her maximise rod. Which given the spell can zap up to 20 monsters per cast is pretty much the definition of a crap ton of damage I'd say. It's obviously better at clearing adds than it is dealing with bosses but it certainly clears adds.

Chain lightning is a reflex save. A good third of all enemies have "evasion", which means that when they succeed at a reflex save (and given the inflated saves, they almost always will) they take 0 damage.

In any case Ice Storm or /Volcanic storm as an Arcane Trickster will do more damage on a sneak attack than Chain Lightning on a non-trickster will when Empowered+Maximized. They tend to average around 200 per target.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Chain lightning is a reflex save. A good third of all enemies have "evasion", which means that when they succeed at a reflex save (and given the inflated saves, they almost always will) they take 0 damage.

Yes but they have to go some to beat Nenio's DC. I think she's casting it around 34DC at L16 right now with all her feats for it so they need 24 reflex to get a 50% chance of evading it and they need 14 to have any chance of evading it at all. For this reason as a mass add murdering measure it works very well even if it's not a first choice against bosses/elites.

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

In any case Ice Storm or /Volcanic storm as an Arcane Trickster will do more damage on a sneak attack than Chain Lightning on a non-trickster will when Empowered+Maximized. They tend to average around 200 per target.

True but those spells have the disadvantage that they hit you as well as the enemy which is often a problem. I know there are ways round that but again they cost. Also without AT build I would guess the damage output would be a round the same.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Chain lightning is a reflex save. A good third of all enemies have "evasion", which means that when they succeed at a reflex save (and given the inflated saves, they almost always will) they take 0 damage.

Yes but they have to go some to beat Nenio's DC. I think she's casting it around 34DC at L16 right now with all her feats for it so they need 24 reflex to get a 50% chance of evading it and they need 14 to have any chance of evading it at all. For this reason as a mass add murdering measure it works very well even if it's not a first choice against bosses/elites.

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

In any case Ice Storm or /Volcanic storm as an Arcane Trickster will do more damage on a sneak attack than Chain Lightning on a non-trickster will when Empowered+Maximized. They tend to average around 200 per target.

True but those spells have the disadvantage that they hit you as well as the enemy which is often a problem. I know there are ways round that but again they cost. Also without AT build I would guess the damage output would be a round the same.

Without AT the damage output is negligible. Both spells do a grand total of 5d6 by themselves, it's only when you tack on something like 30d6 sneak attack damage that they become useful, and that requires Surprise Spells from Arcane Trickster level 10.

As for hitting yourself, volcanic/ice storm + Selective Metamagic is level 5. Chain Lightning by itself is level 6.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Without AT the damage output is negligible. Both spells do a grand total of 5d6 by themselves,

Chain Lightening does 1d6 per caster level, so 20d6 per target by the end. That's why it's so good compared to Ice Storm and Volcanic Storm, it scales. I assume if you were using it with an AT build then you'd get the sneak attack damage on top of that so really the AT aspect is irrelevant to the comparison.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Without AT the damage output is negligible. Both spells do a grand total of 5d6 by themselves,

Chain Lightening does 1d6 per caster level, so 20d6 per target by the end. That's why it's so good compared to Ice Storm and Volcanic Storm, it scales. I assume if you were using it with an AT build then you'd get the sneak attack damage on top of that so really the AT aspect is irrelevant to the comparison.

Ice storm sneak attacks twice. So any sneak dice you have are doubled. If Chain Lightning is doing 20d6+15d6, Ice Storm is doing 5d6+30d6, with a lower spell level, no saving throw, and a much larger AOE. Admittedly the second half is bludgeoning which doesn't get Ascended and can be partially resisted, nothing fully resists it though.

Chain Lightning isn't even the best non-trickster AOE. Stormbolts does more damage, uses a fort save so there's no 0 damage on successful save, and has a stun. It is level 8 and caster-centered though, so not perfect.

No saving throw is a really REALLY big deal in this game. You talk about 24 reflex as if that's a lot, but that's about the baseline for trash enemies. Anything particularly tough (not even bosses, just tougher trash) is going to have 30+, especially the ones that happen to have Evasion because those are the ones with rogue class levels or similar, and specialize in reflex. And your only even getting that 34 DC by specializing, where you could be spending those gear and feats slots on more damage or +attack or +spell pen instead.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Ice storm sneak attacks twice. So any sneak dice you have are doubled. If Chain Lightning is doing 20d6+15d6, Ice Storm is doing 5d6+30d6, with a lower spell level, no saving throw, and a much larger AOE.

If I remember correctly - Volcanic Storm will deal even more damage via fire-boosting items.

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

No saving throw is a really REALLY big deal in this game.

^^ THIS. It's why ray build is so awesome, especially as Trickster (that would save you from missing by rolling natural 1).

[Lou the Lou]

Finger of Death. Stormbolts. Wail of the Banshee. Exanguinate. Feast of Blood.

[Alucard]

I would say because of Spell Resistance, use Spells which are not afffected by that. So something like acid arrow is better than scorching ray in my opinion. Even if you use spells with saving throws its still guaranteed half damage. Spell resistance + a touch attack roll can be very bad especially on higher difficulties.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Alucard:

Spell resistance + a touch attack roll can be very bad especially on higher difficulties.

Even after nerf of Allied Spellcaster - proper build with proper mythics (Angel for divine caster / Lich / Azata / Trickster) are don't care about spell resistance.
If you're ignoring DC spells - you could invest most early feats into spell pen and that's enough with bonus from items and mythic abilitites.

And touch attacks are never miss past early game if you're building your party correctly (same with non-touch attack honestly). In worst situation - you still have True Strike...

[Alucard]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Alucard:

Spell resistance + a touch attack roll can be very bad especially on higher difficulties.

Even after nerf of Allied Spellcaster - proper build with proper mythics (Angel for divine caster / Lich / Azata / Trickster) are don't care about spell resistance.
If you're ignoring DC spells - you could invest most early feats into spell pen and that's enough with bonus from items and mythic abilitites.

And touch attacks are never miss past early game if you're building your party correctly (same with non-touch attack honestly). In worst situation - you still have True Strike...

I agree, i was talking more about early game and Companions, not counting in Mythics. If i try do build Nenio or Ember as a dmg Caster, it never worked.