Exploring the necromancer

[synnworld]

So first off let me start with I still play King maker, mostly because I enjoy the rogue like mode, sometime I just want some quick action, no heavy exploring or swimming through story. And I play it with the call of the wild mod.

So while i know wotr and KM are different, one updating alot more stuff than the other, I do kinda move in between the two when it comes to building characters. Idk how much I'll do this when wotr rogue like mode comes out, I heard it was getting one too. I just hope we have a larger variety of things to kill.

Now onto the point of this...
Four classes (to my current knowledge), specialized wizard, cleric, undead bloodline sorcerer, and bone spirit shaman. (No I refuse to acknowledge Cruoromancer, I effing hate classes locked by race.)

The question is which in your opinion feels more necromancy?

Now the ideas of what a necromancer is has shifted as time moved forward, it changed from. People summoning spirits to talk with the dead to learn the future to the most modern idea of this one guy raising hordes of undead to fight with an army, to a lesser seen idea of a individual who manipulates life and death energies for various reasons which can be anything from cursing and harming the healthy to healing the sick and injured. Now with that said

Each class has its own unique feel/take on the play but which one really feels best.

Now anything thing that needs to be noted, when I play an specialized type of mage, whether its a necromancer, conjurer, etc... I tend to hard specialize meaning the thematic spells come first before any other regardless of how good or bad they maybe and no matter what "better" spells maybe at that level. What's the point of roleplaying I'm not going to stick to it and go for what's effective and not what fits the role of my character.

With that said let's look shall we?


specialist wizards/gluttony: this has always felt like the biggest let downs to despite what they are... I get it, it's still a wizard with the ability to change out spells but honestly I still expect something called a specialist wizards to actually have at least decent passive buffs to make him stronger at what he does. Literally all of his... "Bonuses" might as well be considered no existent. Call me ignorant or w/e but I never even noticed life sight. Grave touch? Why would I even want to go into melee as a mage?

Undead bloodline: this, now this is what I expected specialist wizard to look more like, it has both thematic spells which fit the bill both active and passive abilities. Only real thing I don't like is the whole, "mind altering spell now effect them." Personally I'd had rather this been something more in line with necromancy in general seeing how I not really going to be grabbing any illusions or enchantment spells anytime soon. I mean I do grab mirror image... eventually but yeah.

Cleric: now this is a necromancer type I've never played personally but am always seen mentioned mostly because it gets animate dead way earlier than mages but it also does have some unique necromancer spells of its own.

Shaman with bone spirit: similar to the undead bloodline thematically it hits all the right notes with the spells and even the hexes are nice. And due the the whole deal with spirits aspect, it definitely feel like it would be the more darker side of the school. Really, I don't have much negative to say here except I wish it had more of the arcane necro spells in general.

[Frostfeather]

I like to play specialist casters similar to how you do: spells of that school should come first. It makes for far more interesting casters, better rp, and more replayability.

That said, Undead Bloodline Sorcerer wins for me for a Necro hands down because if you're sticking mainly to Necro spells, you're naturally tankier already through (Greater) False Life, Vampiric Touch, etc. The extra defenses and DR you get with the Undead Bloodline enhance that further and let you use your lower level Necro spells to prevent damage to the group by absorbing that damage with temporary hp. That leads to less healing needed by the group, which leads to more offense in the group on the whole, which leads to enemies dying faster... which supports the Undead Bloodline Sorcerer who's tanking because while they can tank well, they don't do as well when forced to tank for extended periods. Having an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer "tank" helps define your strategy as a group, and it can be extremely effective.

On top of that, like you mentioned, some of the best Necro spells are arcane. While Shaman and Clerics can get some of those spells (possibly even multiple casts through Ecclesitheurge), they will never have the variety of higher level Necro spells, and they'll never have the same level of survivability. They'll also be missing key supporting spells like True Strike, Mirror Image, maybe Haste, etc that the arcane Necro brings.

So finally, when looking at Wizard vs Sorcerer... spontaneous casters feel infinitely better to play as tankier casters because they don't have to predict how many spells they'll need for their defense. Some days will require most of their spells spent on staying alive, other days almost none and they can turn to offense. So if you're really playing to Necromancy's strengths, I think Sorcerer is the winner overall, and that's not even taking into account the Lich path at all and its synergy with Charisma and tankiness.

If you insist on being more of a mid/backline DC caster, then you can go Sage Sorcerer or Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer. Or I suppose Arcanist should work fine, too.

[synnworld]

Originally posted by night4:

I like to play specialist casters similar to how you do: spells of that school should come first. It makes for far more interesting casters, better rp, and more replayability.

That said, Undead Bloodline Sorcerer wins for me for a Necro hands down because if you're sticking mainly to Necro spells, you're naturally tankier already through (Greater) False Life, Vampiric Touch, etc. The extra defenses and DR you get with the Undead Bloodline enhance that further and let you use your lower level Necro spells to prevent damage to the group by absorbing that damage with temporary hp. That leads to less healing needed by the group, which leads to more offense in the group on the whole, which leads to enemies dying faster... which supports the Undead Bloodline Sorcerer who's tanking because while they can tank well, they don't do as well when forced to tank for extended periods. Having an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer "tank" helps define your strategy as a group, and it can be extremely effective.

On top of that, like you mentioned, some of the best Necro spells are arcane. While Shaman and Clerics can get some of those spells (possibly even multiple casts through Ecclesitheurge), they will never have the variety of higher level Necro spells, and they'll never have the same level of survivability. They'll also be missing key supporting spells like True Strike, Mirror Image, maybe Haste, etc that the arcane Necro brings.

So finally, when looking at Wizard vs Sorcerer... spontaneous casters feel infinitely better to play as tankier casters because they don't have to predict how many spells they'll need for their defense. Some days will require most of their spells spent on staying alive, other days almost none and they can turn to offense. So if you're really playing to Necromancy's strengths, I think Sorcerer is the winner overall, and that's not even taking into account the Lich path at all and its synergy with Charisma and tankiness.

If you insist on being more of a mid/backline DC caster, then you can go Sage Sorcerer or Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer. Or I suppose Arcanist should work fine, too.

Undead sorcerer does win to me but for the very reason it just fits a whole lot better to the role thematically, and technically it just gives more to the actual necro playstyle, regardless if you want to be a minion master, or negative energy plaster. That's why my main focus was on what the classes actually gave toward the idea. Also why the specialist is just so disappointing, it gives basically nothing towards the school of necromancy while shaman due to hexes and spirit magic actually feels like a hard second to me.

I really did want to try crouromancer but I hate when games restrict my freedom.of choice in ways such as locking me out of classes because of race or gender. I read that a human with a heritage could actually get the class but wotr doesn't give heritage to humans and toy box doesn't seem to have a way to remove the restriction itself so until I can play a human one, I'm not touching that class.

[Gorwe]

What is your opinion on Cure Wounds line? To what School do they belong?

[corisai]

Originally posted by synnworld:

Four classes (to my current knowledge), specialized wizard, cleric, undead bloodline sorcerer, and bone spirit shaman. (No I refuse to acknowledge Cruoromancer, I effing hate classes locked by race.)

Existing Lich mythic is arcana-based. While you could pick it being a Cleric - you will lose major part of mythic uniqueness in form of access to level 10 arcana spells.

So your choice is between wizard and sorcerer :)

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by synnworld:

Undead sorcerer does win to me but for the very reason it just fits a whole lot better to the role thematically, and technically it just gives more to the actual necro playstyle, regardless if you want to be a minion master, or negative energy plaster. That's why my main focus was on what the classes actually gave toward the idea. Also why the specialist is just so disappointing, it gives basically nothing towards the school of necromancy while shaman due to hexes and spirit magic actually feels like a hard second to me.

I really did want to try crouromancer but I hate when games restrict my freedom.of choice in ways such as locking me out of classes because of race or gender. I read that a human with a heritage could actually get the class but wotr doesn't give heritage to humans and toy box doesn't seem to have a way to remove the restriction itself so until I can play a human one, I'm not touching that class.

Yeah, it definitely fits well thematically, too. I know I got into the mechanics a bit there, but the "feel" of a class is important to me, and Undead Bloodline Sorcerer definitely has that going for it. I was partly trying to say that a Necro (especially Undead Bloodline Necro) that hangs back and doesn't make use of their tankiness at all isn't really making the most of their low/mid level Necro spells.

Haven't tried Cruoromancer yet but... it just doesn't really look like it's worth giving up spontaneous casting to me.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

What is your opinion on Cure Wounds line? To what School do they belong?

To me, it never felt right to have Cure Wounds in the Necromancy school in the past. Inflict/Cause Wounds, yes, absolutely should be Necromancy, but not Cure.

When it comes to "healing", Necromancy should only be able to steal life, give life by paying with one's own, or create false life through temporary hp, not actually heal wounds without paying a "blood" cost.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by talemore:

resurrection based on positive energy is still a necromancing action, isn't it?

I remember in BG/IWD/etc, curing wounds was Necromancy, but in this edition of Pathfinder it's apparently Conjuration. Along with Resurrection and Raise Dead and such. I always assumed this change was for the reasons I already listed as to why it bothered me (healing without a cost doesn't feel like Necromancy). But I don't really know.

Apparently, the second edition of Pathfinder moves curing/resurrecting back to Necromancy but has keywords or traits like "Healing" and "Positive" to help differentiate these types of spells as a subset of Necromancy. I can live with that, should we ever actually see a Pathfinder 2e video game.

[synnworld]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by synnworld:

Four classes (to my current knowledge), specialized wizard, cleric, undead bloodline sorcerer, and bone spirit shaman. (No I refuse to acknowledge Cruoromancer, I effing hate classes locked by race.)

Existing Lich mythic is arcana-based. While you could pick it being a Cleric - you will lose major part of mythic uniqueness in form of access to level 10 arcana spells.

So your choice is between wizard and sorcerer :)

Yes I know this I've played a liche bone shaman and a liche arcanist.

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by synnworld:

Four classes (to my current knowledge), specialized wizard, cleric, undead bloodline sorcerer, and bone spirit shaman. (No I refuse to acknowledge Cruoromancer, I effing hate classes locked by race.)

Existing Lich mythic is arcana-based. While you could pick it being a Cleric - you will lose major part of mythic uniqueness in form of access to level 10 arcana spells.

So your choice is between wizard and sorcerer :)

Yes I know this I've played a liche bone shaman and a liche arcanist. But at the moment we aren't talking about mythic, we are focusing on the thematic of the classes themselves.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

What is your opinion on Cure Wounds line? To what School do they belong?

I haven't paid attention to it so I don't know what school it's in now, I heard at one point it was in the necromancer school, but I think that was in dnd and not pf. Either way it can fit a necromancer quite easily if you play it off as flesh manipulation/cellular manipulation. It's one of those spells along side other such as resurrect that I look at as can easily into the school of necromancy.

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by synnworld:

Undead sorcerer does win to me but for the very reason it just fits a whole lot better to the role thematically, and technically it just gives more to the actual necro playstyle, regardless if you want to be a minion master, or negative energy plaster. That's why my main focus was on what the classes actually gave toward the idea. Also why the specialist is just so disappointing, it gives basically nothing towards the school of necromancy while shaman due to hexes and spirit magic actually feels like a hard second to me.

I really did want to try crouromancer but I hate when games restrict my freedom.of choice in ways such as locking me out of classes because of race or gender. I read that a human with a heritage could actually get the class but wotr doesn't give heritage to humans and toy box doesn't seem to have a way to remove the restriction itself so until I can play a human one, I'm not touching that class.

Yeah, it definitely fits well thematically, too. I know I got into the mechanics a bit there, but the "feel" of a class is important to me, and Undead Bloodline Sorcerer definitely has that going for it. I was partly trying to say that a Necro (especially Undead Bloodline Necro) that hangs back and doesn't make use of their tankiness at all isn't really making the most of their low/mid level Necro spells.

Haven't tried Cruoromancer yet but... it just doesn't really look like it's worth giving up spontaneous casting to me.

I actually was never one to care much for the tankiness of a caster. For me if the necromancer is up front where the tankiness would matter than I'm doing something wrong or my teammates are dead and I'm running for my life. As far as spontaneous casting, it's not that important for me either, as long as there are other things strengthen the necromatic magic itself I can play with spell slots no problem.

Originally posted by talemore:

Usually the focus is on negative energy vs positive energy.

resurrection based on positive energy is still a necromancing action, isn't it? A question that full metal alchemist asks. If you resurrect a human being is this the same person? Or is it created by positive or negative energy. Can it be the case that the reason why undead become zombies is because they are depressed.

Generally necromancy is a wizard school of magic. That's all there is to it. Any spell, no matter what it does. It can even be a healing spell as long it designated as a "necromancy"

Any class who uses necromancy-spells is part of necromancer.

The only difference is the focus on negative energy instead of positive energy to heal and resurrect.

Many enchantment spells are part of a chain with necromancy.

Example fear spells weaken resistance to fear spells and fear spells are found within necromancy spells. Enchantment spells focusing on the negative energy spectrum of creating curses or zombies.

Necromancy could be including harmful mythic paths where you gain buffs for damaging your own party and as a cleric you need to mend their wounds so that you can continue harming them to gain buffs.

This can be described as sourcing power through stealing positive or negative energy from a victim. Which is why all sorcerers are in general evil since there usually is a victim(s) who is the source of their power. In pathfinder it is a dragon bloodline, never explained exactly this means in terms of a sorcerer but it is usually role-played that the fighter is a natural wizard who can not cast any spells because of the sorcerer.

That's actually an interesting way of looking at it.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by synnworld:

I actually was never one to care much for the tankiness of a caster. For me if the necromancer is up front where the tankiness would matter than I'm doing something wrong or my teammates are dead and I'm running for my life.

I don't typically care as much for a caster's tankiness, but Undead Bloodline Sorcerer is one of the tankiest single classes in the game. And if they're never taking damage, half of what they get in the early game is kinda wasted (if you're trying to focus on mainly using Necromancy spells and Bloodline abilities).

Just saying, it might be worth trying to go outside your comfort zone a bit with it sometime. Even if it's just for the earlier part of the game against low-risk enemies like mites, kobolds, cultists and such.

[GunStarX]

Cure spells should be in the conjuration school, at least they are in this game.

Surprised no one mentioned witch as a possible class? Ember sure gets a lot of necro spells. Her class could even be thematic with the right curse. Hex channeler might be better though

Sorcerer is probably the strongest though, for the mind effecting part

[Archnemesis]

I get a lot of people think Sorcerer is better for Lich or just Necromancer path, but Wizard to me is more versatile as a caster for such a path even without specializing down the School.

My take is this, if you are a universalist wizard you have access to ALL spells without penalty. Granted you aren't getting the specialty buff for being a full on Necromancer specialization, but you don't have to sacrifice the any other schools either so all your spells are 1 for 1 prepared slots.

Take into account if you do go down Lich path, yes, Sorcerer build you get a mean amount of HP and boon for being now Undead, but you also get a sick amount of Intelligence gain as well that can make up for the lack of Charisma boon hit you will take.

So now imagine yourself a Wizard with full versatility to select whatever spells you need and you'll probably have a shock trooper guard Undead anyways to take the brunt of any melee attacks as you just sit back and either mind screw them over, necro spells, evoc, whatever you need really.

Don't get me wrong though, I am still saying the Sorcerer is still a really strong choice as a Necromancer, but Wizards (Necromancer specialization or Universalist) still have my vote as the strongest option in the long run since they don't have to rely as much on acquiring henchmen to fill in gaps they may need down the road. Also, usually most Liches don't take a tank role unless they have lost all their minions. I know a lot of people have fallen in love with the Death Knight type of Lich, but I'm more partial to the Why-tank-when-I-can-have-underlings-do-that-for-me type of Lich. :p

Still I got to say really got to take my hat off to some of you. Got some interesting ideas and builds for a Necromancer I hadn't thought of before. Really cool.

[synnworld]

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Cure spells should be in the conjuration school, at least they are in this game.

Surprised no one mentioned witch as a possible class? Ember sure gets a lot of necro spells. Her class could even be thematic with the right curse. Hex channeler might be better though

Sorcerer is probably the strongest though, for the mind effecting part

My first interaction with both the witch and Oracle were my first playthrough so I have minimal experience with both outside of ember and dorean who I turned into basically an hexbot/hell fire bot and heal/buff bot. Hell I'm still trying to figure out wtf I gave dorean that made all his heals and buffs range touch spells instead of putting himself in danger to run up and touch the target.

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Cure spells should be in the conjuration school, at least they are in this game.

Surprised no one mentioned witch as a possible class? Ember sure gets a lot of necro spells. Her class could even be thematic with the right curse. Hex channeler might be better though

Sorcerer is probably the strongest though, for the mind effecting part

My first interaction with both the witch and Oracle were my first playthrough so I have minimal experience with both outside of ember and dorean who I turned into basically an hexbot/hell fire bot and heal/buff bot. Hell I'm still trying to figure out wtf I gave dorean that made all his heals and buffs range touch spells instead of putting himself in danger to run up and touch the target.

Originally posted by Archnemesis:

I get a lot of people think Sorcerer is better for Lich or just Necromancer path, but Wizard to me is more versatile as a caster for such a path even without specializing down the School.

My take is this, if you are a universalist wizard you have access to ALL spells without penalty. Granted you aren't getting the specialty buff for being a full on Necromancer specialization, but you don't have to sacrifice the any other schools either so all your spells are 1 for 1 prepared slots.

Take into account if you do go down Lich path, yes, Sorcerer build you get a mean amount of HP and boon for being now Undead, but you also get a sick amount of Intelligence gain as well that can make up for the lack of Charisma boon hit you will take.

So now imagine yourself a Wizard with full versatility to select whatever spells you need and you'll probably have a shock trooper guard Undead anyways to take the brunt of any melee attacks as you just sit back and either mind screw them over, necro spells, evoc, whatever you need really.

Don't get me wrong though, I am still saying the Sorcerer is still a really strong choice as a Necromancer, but Wizards (Necromancer specialization or Universalist) still have my vote as the strongest option in the long run since they don't have to rely as much on acquiring henchmen to fill in gaps they may need down the road. Also, usually most Liches don't take a tank role unless they have lost all their minions. I know a lot of people have fallen in love with the Death Knight type of Lich, but I'm more partial to the Why-tank-when-I-can-have-underlings-do-that-for-me type of Lich. :p

Still I got to say really got to take my hat off to some of you. Got some interesting ideas and builds for a Necromancer I hadn't thought of before. Really cool.

Don't get me wrong, I am team wizard all the way. I prefer to play a wizard so a sorcerer any day of the week, but sadly the fact of the matter is wizards got the short end of the stick when it comes.to classes, themes, and even passives.

Sorcerer got a crap ton of classes, classes with get crazy free spells and interesting unique passives. While wotr did upgrade wizard subs a bit bringing in the exploiter wizard, elementalist, and spell master which is a class I really liked due to the free meta, yet compared to the sorcerer which has subs and specializations that go from general to extremely specific, to literally changing is class stat from char to wisdom or intelligence. When it comes to theme based character builds and role play, they just spoon fed it to the sorcerer class. Also necromancer tend to be my favorite mages over all just in general, so I'm always looking for ways to play a caster necro.

[GunStarX]

Originally posted by synnworld:

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Cure spells should be in the conjuration school, at least they are in this game.

Surprised no one mentioned witch as a possible class? Ember sure gets a lot of necro spells. Her class could even be thematic with the right curse. Hex channeler might be better though

Sorcerer is probably the strongest though, for the mind effecting part

My first interaction with both the witch and Oracle were my first playthrough so I have minimal experience with both outside of ember and dorean who I turned into basically an hexbot/hell fire bot and heal/buff bot. Hell I'm still trying to figure out wtf I gave dorean that made all his heals and buffs range touch spells instead of putting himself in danger to run up and touch the target.

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Cure spells should be in the conjuration school, at least they are in this game.

Surprised no one mentioned witch as a possible class? Ember sure gets a lot of necro spells. Her class could even be thematic with the right curse. Hex channeler might be better though

Sorcerer is probably the strongest though, for the mind effecting part

My first interaction with both the witch and Oracle were my first playthrough so I have minimal experience with both outside of ember and dorean who I turned into basically an hexbot/hell fire bot and heal/buff bot. Hell I'm still trying to figure out wtf I gave dorean that made all his heals and buffs range touch spells instead of putting himself in danger to run up and touch the target.

Originally posted by Archnemesis:

I get a lot of people think Sorcerer is better for Lich or just Necromancer path, but Wizard to me is more versatile as a caster for such a path even without specializing down the School.

My take is this, if you are a universalist wizard you have access to ALL spells without penalty. Granted you aren't getting the specialty buff for being a full on Necromancer specialization, but you don't have to sacrifice the any other schools either so all your spells are 1 for 1 prepared slots.

Take into account if you do go down Lich path, yes, Sorcerer build you get a mean amount of HP and boon for being now Undead, but you also get a sick amount of Intelligence gain as well that can make up for the lack of Charisma boon hit you will take.

So now imagine yourself a Wizard with full versatility to select whatever spells you need and you'll probably have a shock trooper guard Undead anyways to take the brunt of any melee attacks as you just sit back and either mind screw them over, necro spells, evoc, whatever you need really.

Don't get me wrong though, I am still saying the Sorcerer is still a really strong choice as a Necromancer, but Wizards (Necromancer specialization or Universalist) still have my vote as the strongest option in the long run since they don't have to rely as much on acquiring henchmen to fill in gaps they may need down the road. Also, usually most Liches don't take a tank role unless they have lost all their minions. I know a lot of people have fallen in love with the Death Knight type of Lich, but I'm more partial to the Why-tank-when-I-can-have-underlings-do-that-for-me type of Lich. :p

Still I got to say really got to take my hat off to some of you. Got some interesting ideas and builds for a Necromancer I hadn't thought of before. Really cool.

Don't get me wrong, I am team wizard all the way. I prefer to play a wizard so a sorcerer any day of the week, but sadly the fact of the matter is wizards got the short end of the stick when it comes.to classes, themes, and even passives.

Sorcerer got a crap ton of classes, classes with get crazy free spells and interesting unique passives. While wotr did upgrade wizard subs a bit bringing in the exploiter wizard, elementalist, and spell master which is a class I really liked due to the free meta, yet compared to the sorcerer which has subs and specializations that go from general to extremely specific, to literally changing is class stat from char to wisdom or intelligence. When it comes to theme based character builds and role play, they just spoon fed it to the sorcerer class. Also necromancer tend to be my favorite mages over all just in general, so I'm always looking for ways to play a caster necro.

For Daeran there's a mythic ability boundless healing that gives reach and removes the level cap for healing spells. With that and mythic channel and the revelation that let's you heal over max hp, he's the op healer for sure.

Back to the topic, I've been a fan of necromancers since Diablo 2, but I haven't managed to try a litch run yet. Man I really need to stop starting this game over

[synnworld]

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Originally posted by synnworld:

My first interaction with both the witch and Oracle were my first playthrough so I have minimal experience with both outside of ember and dorean who I turned into basically an hexbot/hell fire bot and heal/buff bot. Hell I'm still trying to figure out wtf I gave dorean that made all his heals and buffs range touch spells instead of putting himself in danger to run up and touch the target.


My first interaction with both the witch and Oracle were my first playthrough so I have minimal experience with both outside of ember and dorean who I turned into basically an hexbot/hell fire bot and heal/buff bot. Hell I'm still trying to figure out wtf I gave dorean that made all his heals and buffs range touch spells instead of putting himself in danger to run up and touch the target.


Don't get me wrong, I am team wizard all the way. I prefer to play a wizard so a sorcerer any day of the week, but sadly the fact of the matter is wizards got the short end of the stick when it comes.to classes, themes, and even passives.

Sorcerer got a crap ton of classes, classes with get crazy free spells and interesting unique passives. While wotr did upgrade wizard subs a bit bringing in the exploiter wizard, elementalist, and spell master which is a class I really liked due to the free meta, yet compared to the sorcerer which has subs and specializations that go from general to extremely specific, to literally changing is class stat from char to wisdom or intelligence. When it comes to theme based character builds and role play, they just spoon fed it to the sorcerer class. Also necromancer tend to be my favorite mages over all just in general, so I'm always looking for ways to play a caster necro.

For Daeran there's a mythic ability boundless healing that gives reach and removes the level cap for healing spells. With that and mythic channel and the revelation that let's you heal over max hp, he's the op healer for sure.


Back to the topic, I've been a fan of necromancers since Diablo 2, but I haven't managed to try a litch run yet. Man I really need to stop starting this game over

Just don't do what I did, my first run was a bone shaman lich, it was fun no doubt but I found the separate spell books annoying. I had no idea about merging spell books until I respect around level 10 into a spell master with necromancer focus to see what that class was about. When I saw that the spell books could be merged and what it did to my caster level I hated it. Now let me clarify, mechanically it makes sense. Mechanically if freaking awesome!!! But the spell book merging kind of destroys to incentive to actually experiment like ideas. Because now I know nothing I do with the lich will will even compete with just going arcane caster lich or divine caster angel for that fact.

[Gorwe]

Let's see the definition of Necromancy, shall we?

"Necromancy deals with the manipulation of the essential life force which infuses all living things. Its darker aspects is the creation and control of the undead creatures." (Pathfinder)

"The School of Necromancy explores the cosmic forces of life, death, and undeath. As you focus your studies in this tradition, you learn to manipulate the energy that animates all living things. As you progress, you learn to sap the life force from a creature as your magic destroys its body, transforming that vital energy into magical power you can manipulate." (D&D 5e)

As you can see, life and manipulation of its life force is always mentioned. Cure spells? They can belong here. OR! They can belong in Evocation. Why Evoke? Because you are channeling pure positive energy, obviously. But bythat aspect, channeling negative should also be Evoke, so that's a dangerous line of thought. Best to put Cure here, in Necro.

Also, why is Fear in Necro and other negative emotions like Despair, Grief etc aren't? Imo, magical manipulation of emotions should fall under Ench, I feel like Fear is in Necro simply because it always has been(at least in 3.0). But it don't belong here.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Archnemesis:

I get a lot of people think Sorcerer is better for Lich or just Necromancer path, but Wizard to me is more versatile as a caster for such a path even without specializing down the School.

It's a false versatility. In table-top game - true, there are so many non-combat spells that could help your adventure A LOT so wizards have a clear advantage.
In CRPG we're fighting 95% of time and only battles are relevant to progress our adventure. In that case every spell level have 4-5 top tier pick and basic wizard is total crap compared with sorcerer.
Wizards are obly suited for new players or very specific abuses of their archetypes.