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I also enjoyed Kingdom management in Kingmaker.
So if Owlcat is paying attention, there are certainly many of us who love your systems. I'm always happy to see them approved, but I definitely can't get behind the insinuation that the crusade system is "garbage". My 2cp.
Well seeing as well seem to be asking each other, all polite and all, about why we think what we think, err..
What exactly do you think is "daft" about it?
No thought, no "gameplay" whatsoever involved... but, wait... you haven't asked me...
.... having Army XXXVI with 10 units on it popping up ...
... not being able to dismiss units (awful in combo with above)
... I know, just leave them there, but why? but why?
... have I pointed out your armies don't use the same paths on the map as your party - WTF is this exactly?
... this very weird and kinda random merc system ("Ya never quite know what you're gonna get") on that recruitment screen, but roll the dice 4 times (why that exactly?)
... so? spoiler alert? build up awesome armies in Act 3! Now I know six months pass! Act 5 you start over from scratch! Wait a couple days, somehow your lvld up generals are still around! At least you can RE recruit them! (Why?) Pretty much redo Act 3 in Act 5!
P.S. fine when you know this, but worst the first time when you see it
... weird and inconsistent results from using the "commander abilities" on the world map (never discussed this, but saw it)
... except for Crusade quests that pop up rarely, there seems to be little logic as to when the enemy counterattacks or where
... who hates building buildings? but ... it's building the same ones, over and over and over again .., upgrade so you can build more ...
... shouldn't there be SOME other kind of terrain of interest on a battle map than ... ok here's the one rock or tree you have to go around ...
I know I sound like Seinfeld here, but ... why? just why?
Stuff I loved:
... Council meetings. Regill's advice. Seriously, you CANNOT go wrong with Regill's advice.
... The decree system WOULD be awesome, I think, if it was a bit more logical (it's almost there, so I don't put it up there) ... now again is this just me? Why was I unable to conclude so many Crusade "relic research" projects?
... Teleport circles. Who can hate those?
... If Kineticists were only as easy to play in your party as they are to use on the Crusade
... In general they and other Crusade spellcasting units rock!
I played through the WoTR AP. Pathfinder has a set of rules for army battles, but we didn't use them much. The DM wanted to at first, but it slowed things down, and she decided to base the outcome on Rivin's (my character) strategies and our actions before combat, such as assassinating the enemy leader.
The actual army rules only came in once as far as I know, and I'll post them at the end of this wall of text. The AP takes a VERY different angle than the videogame, (one that makes a lot more sense in my opinion) and though Rivin cemented herself as a commander of the Fifth Crusade, most of the time was not spent making policies or managing Drezen (as that was Irabeth's job), but rather going out into the world and completing important tasks, such as rescuing Arueshalae from Jaruunicka (which is where you first meet her, not in the dungeon) or finding the base of the Templars of the Ivory Labyrinth, or a multitude of other things.
Literally everything in the video game is different except for very few things, such as some of the characters, like Sosiel and Anevia, but some of them are changed massively, like Horgus.. If you did his quest. I don't mind this, as it tells a very different story, but the one it does tell feels really odd because the AP makes a lot more sense, and the video game actually rearranged lots of stuff to make it so that important characters are showed off earlier on, while the AP mainly did this either through notes, and you'd get to know about who you'll face later through their orders. For example, Kenabres was ruined by Khorramzadeh, (who has a much more important role in Deskari's army than the video game makes out so far, considering his name is barely mentioned in act 3 as of yet) and the Wardstone (not full of angels this time) was to be corrupted, but instead of purifying it we had to destroy it so that the demons wouldn't use it to twist everyone along the Wardstones with Abyssal energies. The mythic powers actually come from releasing those in the Wardstone, and honestly I feel as though the threat in the AP was worse, because it would've turned people into demonic slaves rather than blowing them up.
Anyway, in the AP the army rules are mainly used when Queen Galfrey shows up after Kenabres to hand you the reins to lead the way for Drezen, for all of two battles. Nurah actually does try to sabotage you on the march as well, but the stuff with the gargoyles and all that doesn't happen to your army. Instead, she tries to get Aron Kir (I love Aron, not sure why they all but cut him from the game) to relapse on his addiction to a particular drug, I forget which. It was either demonblood or shadowblood, and she was going to place it in his bag to tempt him, thus sabotaging the war effort. However, in the AP Nurah is far more subtle, but Rivin was very persistent in cornering her when she noticed footprints being made by an invisible person, especially leading into Aron's tent, as she had just gotten back from talking to him I think.
I'll answer other questions about the AP if you want, but to be specific about what you asked, here are the mass combat rules.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/mass-combat/
It was honestly more fun to think of strategies and see them at work than hoping our dice rolls are befitting of an entire army of paladins. Queen Galfrey actually sends you with a lot of well trained paladins, not recruit footmen. In the AP, she's also fighting a desperate war at the southern Worldwound, trying to keep the demons from reaching Nerosyan and elsewhere, (such as Ustalav, which is interestingly directly south of the Worldwound, and is the home of my character) while the battle for Drezen catches a few eyes, but the demons aren't exactly well organized, and all have their own agendas, which are mostly to crush the crusaders in any way they can. They're all in it for themselves, which is why Aponavicius stupidly left the Sword of Valor in Drezen as a trophy. They're all vying for glory in their own ways, and in the grand scheme of things these new heroes at Drezen weren't something they feared, yet.. But like I said, if you have any questions about the AP I'd be glad to answer. I've had such amazing moments with it that I'm always happy to share.
It looks like they tried to build the Crusade around those rules. But it sounds like they turned it into a very different HOMM-like system. I have this weird feeling this was a round hole, square peg problem.
They sure hammered hard, though.
I count something like 100 special abilities different units can have in that link you posted. I mean, yeah......
One question, in the TT AP
* how many battles do you fight on the way to Drezen?
* how many battles do you fight in what we would call Act 3 in the game?
* How many forts do you capture?
1. Battles: Firstly, there was the battle at Vilareth Ford, a river crossing.
There's the fight at Keeper's Canyon, against an army (of dretches and tieflings) led by Othirubo, who in the video game is the alchemist in the Gray Garrison. Before this was when Nurah attempts to hide the Shadowblood (a highly addictive demonic drug) in Aron's pack (I went back to look at my records) in Aron's pack, and he was in fact shivering from withdrawal still, but his personal journey on the path to recovery was one that is shown better than the game, which I still have yet to see much of him in.. A shame, really.
Slight tangent, but I recommend you look up what the demons do and how they came to be, the video game is way too impersonal regarding these things, and it takes away from the flavor.
After traveling further, Rivin spotted a dilapidated chapel, which she investigated with her team rather than the army, as hundreds of brave paladins would surely crowd it. She noticed some gargoyles, but despite hearing that not all of them are unmoving stone, she didn't want to defile a chapel of Iomeade.. But when they began to dive bomb her friends there was little doubt as to whether they were a part of the chapel itself. From here on she absolutely refuses to trust statues. There were ghouls here as well. Nulkineth was actually a person (albeit a half-demon) who was trying to feed the nabasu, presumably to turn it into a vrolokai. The nabasu was only able to paralyze everyone except Rivin, who executed it. Later there were some ghouls, though unlike the video game the army was not threatened by these nor the gargoyles, whose numbers were comparatively smaller, and more of a personal threat. The nabasu here was also not mythic. There were however, similar decorations, such as tables with restraints and meat hooks. But after all was said and done, we had a hundred healing potions which were stashed away there, which we gave to the army, who then helped us to clean up the place.
There were other events which took place in the meantime, but since you asked about the battles specifically, I'll continue to focus on that.
Further along the path to Drezen was a gorge filled with seething green vapors, right where Rivin had to march her army through.. But upon a closer inspection, and a friendly tip from Aravashnial, the last remaining member of the Riftwardens in Kenabres, they were actually fist sized demonic vermin known as vescavors.. From here Rivin led a small strike force to take out the vescavor queen, stealthily creeping through a cave where she was likely to be. Though you can only be so stealthy when a mass of vescavors buzzing with the madness of the Abyss find you. They however, were not expecting to be bombarded by our alchemist. Yes, they did have to fight swarms, unfortunately. But despite those encounters, their foray continued to move silently, as the queen would surely not know from which direction they would strike. After removing her from the picture, they went above to see that the path had been cleared now, though at this point the corruption of the Worldwound was evident.. Far more than the video game, actually, as you only begin to see it more to the west there.
Moving along, toward the end of the day the crusader army finally stood over Drezen, though the siege would not begin until the next day, as her war council and brave paladins would now be offered a much needed rest. During the night, the guards she posted spotted some ghouls which quickly closed in on the camp, though with great haste they were dispatched and sent crawling back into the darkness. From there, a path would be carved to the citadel, and then the fight against the traitor Staunton Vhane, turned against his fellow mortals by the treachery demon (a glabrezu) Jerribeth would begin.. Though there were far more trials ahead than just that. However, that is another story altogether.
2. How many battles we fought in act 3: What we call act 3 was actually book 3 of the AP, which was comprised of 6 books. The third was called "Demon's Heresy," centered around a succubus the heroes first heard of in the Drezen dungeon, where she escaped, leaving behind only a prayer to Desna carved on the wall. Staunton's journal and some other documents spoke of a demon known as "Arueshalae," who betrayed the cause of the unholy coalition between the forces of Baphomet and Deskari. Anevia, the now resident spymaster, pointed the heroes in the direction of a potential hiding spot - an old clan hall belonging to the Grunhuld-Wintersuns. Nurah suggested that they focus searching on a blank spot on the map which was a fairly large region with sparse trees (more than the rest of the worldwound) that remained somewhat pure. So there were two leads in finding her.
Mind you, Nurah was on the path to redemption at this point. (You can skip this if you don't really care, but I find the lore interesting, and what I did with Nurah is far better than the video game :) ) When she betrayed the group during the fight against Staunton Vhane, with the aid of Kiranda the succubus, she was nearly spared.. But she told Rivin that she didn't feel there was any good in her, for just a second, Rivin believed her. Moments later, Rivin was stricken with grief and doubt over her decision, and made it her priority to bring her back. She felt that the moments they shared toward the end, (which I didn't include, as this would be far longer of a tangent) had to mean something, that there was just a spark of good in her left, and a part of her which would die upon being sent to the Abyss. Rivin always believed in a brighter future for all she could help, so this could not stand. Luckily Staunton had set aside an elixir which could bring someone back to life. However, when a soul is unsure of whether it wishes to return, it can be debated in Pharasma's court.. Rivin was led by a pychopomp to make her case to Nurah, as did a glabrezu, a representative of the Abyss, who urged her to move on. In the end, Rivin was able to save Nurah's soul from such a disgusting fate, though it would take a while before she truly recovered. In my opinion this was certainly a battle, and one fought with the utmost urgency, for the soul of Rivin's friend, as tortured as it was, had to be fought for.
I'll spare you the details on the fight at the clan hall, (unless you ask) but Marhevok was far more terrifying than the video game in my opinion, although he did have his 'cool' pet. His people were actually ruled by his iron fist, which was in service to the demons, rather than being tricked. He was in charge of raiding crusader supply lines. No tie-ins with Arueshalae there, but there was another lead still.
In this chapter there were other similar places, like a place where vrocks were trying to turn people into demons. This was swiftly put to an end.
At Delamere's Tomb, where a local priest of Erastil known as Jesker was said to have gone missing, the group discovered a succubus, who they dealt with, and aided Jesker, broken as he seemed. He had attempted to kill himself with a knife, but Rivin swiftly put a stop to that. Upon returning to Drezen, a demon removed itself from him. An excerpt from the journal describing it: "The demon was a winged abomination - a mix of angelic and demonic features, as though two bodies were just shoved together into one. Its face was fanged and inhuman and was frozen in permanent contempt. The back of its head was bulging with an angelic face, though had an expression of horror." It was a demon known as a shacath, a fact which Aravashnial gladly shared, despite his slightly later recollection of the first time he had ever seen one, which was his first experience with demons altogether. Of course, he mentioned this after it tried to teleport away despite being next to the Sword of Valor. Rivin put an end to it.
Later came the fight with Jaruunicka, a hag sent to destroy Arueshalae, for not only did she betray the demons, she also knew the location of the Ivory Sanctum, headquarters of the Templars of the Ivory Labyrinth, which Nurah once served, and though she had horrifying experiences with the demon Jerribeth, she was unaware of its location. For the sake of justice, and the sake of the crusade, once Arueshalae had appeared in the dreams of the Heroes of Drezen, beckoning for them to reach her, they followed her directions, leading them to fight against will-o-wisps, and the very same hag spoken of moments ago, a worshiper of the demon lord of heresy and suicide, Sifkesh. When she was put down, the heroes spoke to Arueshalae for the first time, and opted to help her on the path to redemption, which would begin with the revelation of the location of the Ivory Sanctum. There's much more to their interactions in that regard, as Rivin is a very strong proponent of justice and redemption, but that would be offtopic.
Sometime during the AP the heroes faced against Zanedra, a summoner, who had kidnapped Aravashnial after securing herself a position as a Riftwarden initiate, though she managed to escape from the place we tracked her to, fighting a multitude of antipaladins in the process.
Rivin led her group to storm the Ivory Sanctum, which was cleverly hidden by an illusion, and guarded by basilisks. They proved of little threat to the powerful monk. Past this was a gate guarded by a Nalfashnee and a multitude of powerful half-fiend minotaurs, which fell before the righteous might of the woman who had come to annex the Ivory Sanctum.
Inside, the fight with Jerribeth was turned into a conversation, (DM's discretion, because she felt that Jerribeth wouldn't be stupid enough to fight us) and instead she made a deal with the heroes that in exchange for letting her live, she would grant them wishes and sow chaos against their foes. She hated Vang because "He worships Deskari and is a general disgrace to the Cult of Baphomet. Did you not see the army he sent to Drezen? Such an assault works against what the Templars want. As a matter of fact, I have grown quite disillusioned with this "Worldwound". It does us more harm than good." This battle also took place in Book 3. As a side note, Zanedra's body was found here, mangled by Jerribeth's hand, for her failure. While glabrezu's may rarely utilize this ability, they can actually grant wishes that are untainted. Most of them twist your wishes in the most horrible ways, but it was possible that we could verify her spell would work as we intended it to, and she submitted to a geass, which was Rivin's idea.
After that, she gave us a signal to show to the ancient kalavakuses which awaited us a little while over, (thus we did not have to fight them, though we would have according to the AP I'm sure) and we passed by them without fighting. We discovered a thanadaemon in a room which held the armor of the paladin Yaniel, and many other very interesting and useful things, tucked away in a place which had a very unconventional defense mechanism. The walls flowed with the waters of the River Styx, which would drain the memories and life of those who touched it. Of course, the heroes were cautious.
Later they came across some Blackfire Adepts, which are the sworn enemies of the Riftwardens, opposing their primary goal of keeping the balance between the planes, and ensuring they don't leak into others. One of them was able to be redeemed, and the others, though some, which were augmented via surgery with demonic organs, perished. Many other trainees and even trapped crusaders, (including a mongrel friend she made in the first book) were to be sent back to Drezen. It helped that the party witch can teleport.
Before reaching Vang, the party came across horrible monsters from the Dominion of the Black, known as Brain Collectors. Look them up, they're horrifying. After dispatching them, Xanthir Vang was left, though no match for the Heroes of Drezen. A mockery of a person, made entirely of wriggling worms, and able to cast magic. Highly appropriate for a servant of Deskari. And like Deskari, he would perish at the hands of the might hero, who used her wish from Jerribeth to grant her majestic angelic wings. Luckily, being a monk, she wore no armor, and thus had nothing to weight her down. She could fly as fast as she could run, which is to say, absurdly far.
As far as battles go, that's about it, but quite a bit happened between and after them, of course. There were smaller battles too, like a schir who had the unfortunate job of attempting to direct a pack of dretches across the Worldwound, but those were not as important, and that was probably an encounter added by my DM. As far as traps and such go, there's a lot more creativity in what you can do with a TRPG as opposed to a video game. Same goes for personal encounters, whether with friends or enemies.
3. Forts.. There weren't many forts to capture, really, though there was one outpost called Eagle Rock, which the heroes took back from a bunch of nasty Derakni. Aside from that, it was just the Ivory Sanctum. There wasn't a whole lot of busywork like capturing random fortresses for the sake of it. The AP is far more story focused. There was stuff to do on the side, like how the business with Jesker wasn't exactly part of the main story, but I skipped over a lot of that because I'd be spending 3 hours typing this instead of 2, lol. Suffice to say, the AP was less like the video game in regards to crusade management, as Irabeth managed Drezen, and the heroes were always far too busy making strides against the demons to stay and lead. Although when there was downtime they'd help with construction or crafting, etc. However, there wasn't too much downtime, which is fine with me, as I quite like the pacing of the AP. I enjoy the way the story is told much more there. If you get the chance, I would suggest playing it. There is very little within the game which remains the same.
My answer was about as thorough as I can be, because I loved my experience so much!
I thought this text above answered that question.
Also, from examining those rules, it seems that they were mostly designed for an encounter like "what happens when an army of 1000 paladins meets an army of 900 X demons". Not for setting up a system for an army of 7-8 different units on one side vs. 7-8 different units on the other.
To put it bluntly, seems to me the AP has rules for mass battles, and you might have a handful as part of its campaign, but in no way is it made as central as Owl decided to do it for Wrath the game. That was their decision, not an adaptation.
I'm only gonna repeat one more observation: in general the only time I see a toggle to turn a major game feature off at ship is when the developer already has some reason to think it's going to be disliked. ... maybe beta feedback?
Well, not necessarily 'cos you also have far fewer party encounters in the TT AP maybe which would balance it out. Also these mass battles in the TT game may take a long time to play out, like a whole play session or something. We need further details really to get a handle on this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5pyqjn/whos_played_around_with_the_mass_combat_rules_in/
As part of the Wrath of the Righteous campaign, there are several opportunities for mass combat. The first half of book 2 is all mass combat, but everything after that is up to the GM.
[snip][end]
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/me3jrr/wrath_of_the_righteous_ap_sword_of_valor_mass/
They don’t combine. The rules for combining armies only work if they’re generally the same kind of thing, you cannot combine two fundamentally different armies.
[snip][end]
So:
1. looks like as was said above, only two (?) things are "baked in" .. one seems to be a battle of 100 paladins vs. ? ... everything else after 1st half of Book 2 is up to DM discretion.
2. you don't and can't combine different armies in the AP.
BTW: it also looks to me what "commanders"/"generals" do on the battlefield is way different than the Owl system.
Because of the way the TT plays, individual battles can actually take much longer, and there are usually less enemies. I feel like in some parts of the video game things actually took a bit too long still because of the amount of enemies they put in, but you're right about the TT having less overall encounters. They're all far more personal, which is a gripe I have about the video game - it lacks the charm and depths of someone warning you about the kalavakus and their ability to enslave souls, or the mind-breaking horrors which you'll face when looking into the eyes of the bodak.
I'm assuming the same thing. It's like how in Kingmaker they let you turn off kingdom management. They figured a lot of people would just want to adventure, which was true, a lot of people hated the KM, though I feel in WoTR it's far less annoying because you don't have to deal with timers nearly as much. Still, they knew some people wouldn't want to bother keeping up with it, so they turned it off. There are actually a lot of options, and some optional rules, like death's door. This helps to account for the variety of ways people play, and ultimately to make things more enjoyable, which is a good goal. There was a beta for WoTR, but you don't create something like crusade mode without going all in on it, so it makes sense that if they thought some people might not like it, they'd put in a skip button.
I separated each question and their answers to help, but I understand that getting a novel in response may be daunting to some. I'm just glad that someone read it. To clarify, we had no mass battles in book 3. Later however, in book 5 we did retake Raliscrad, albeit most of the combat was in cutscene style where we simply described what we were doing. This was not in the AP, but as you said, DM's discretion and all that.
This is one of the main problems I had with the game, too. They made this huge fuzz about all the strange demons you'll encounter and as someone that isn't that deep into Pathfinder-lore I was really stoked for them. But then they get almost no introduction whatsoever and are simply "there" in different variants. Very early on you encounter Glabrezus which I remember at least from D&D as extremely dangerous enemies, here the low-level ones are complete pushovers. Don't let me get started on most of the Balors you encounter later in the game.
It all boils down to the developers wanting to give the players this epic and long experience, while being it more focused and more quality over quantitiy could've made it into a masterpiece.