Armor rant. Do tabletop rules prevent balancing ?

[Veolfen]

Hello everyone.

I'm making this small topic to point the AC stacking issue & the lack of effectiveness of heavy armors on elite mobs & bosses in mid to lategame (core difficulty & above, but it also become problematic in normal mode) :

I don't want to nerf AC stacking builds because people are sacrificing multiple aspects just to have skyhigh AC, but on the other hand, heavy armors shouldn't be useless in core difficulty & above. Even tho, maybe unarmored base AC should be looked into. Lann can easily rock higher defense than seelah for example, even by not investing into defensive skills at all.

We need more tools to boost AC while wearing heavy armors (active & passive skills, better unique armor effects, etc...). Also all armors should actually by default have a little bit more protection too (like +1 AC by default, and maybe +2 starting from chainmail) so the naked guy doesn't become straight up better the moment he puts his hand on AC gloves).
But it's really infuriating to have a fully armored tank with a shield getting killed insanely quick, and let's not talk about how useless a warrior using a 2h (fighter/paladin etc..) in heavy armor will end up being. The point of heavy armor is to actually tank hits & hold a line. That's why when the heaviest armor in history showed up people who could afford one dropped the shields to take 2 handers since the armor was so protective.

What's up with balancing when a melee fighter in armor can't hold the line for even a few seconds ? Stacking the best armors + ac buffs, rings & necklace etc and yet everyone and their mom can damage them hard & kill them quickly from mid to lategame.
Even in normal mode you arrive at a point where your guys in armor start taking a beating real quick because the ennemies are pulling out insane +30/40 bonus on their attack rolls.

On the other hand, if i put the best armor gloves + ring & necklace on Lann for example, he is as good as my frontliners AC wise and i haven't even built him to tank. He can rock 40+ right after you finished taking drezen (give him the best ac gloves, ac necklace & ring you get).

So the problem isn't that some people are minmaxing by using multiple classes to boost their AC, but that just a naked single class (monk in this case) beats armored class by default without any minmaxing involved. And since the ennemy gets insane bonuses on their attack roll, the problem doesn't come from the AC of naked classes, but from the lack of AC you get using heavy armors.

[Khorm]

Its an issue with most Pen and Paper systems that came from D&D, they bake damage resistance and evasion concepts into one stat. This works for tabletop but looks very silly in a video games where you can see your party flailing the swords at a target the size of 3 storey house and all you see is MISS MISS MISS. In fact they are hitting it each turn but are unable to pierce its "armor" (Yes even though there is another damage type reduction/penetration baked into system that makes no sense)

Many CRPGs separate the concepts now to armor tanks taking more consistent, but lower damage, and evasion tanks taking less consistent but spiky damage and both models have advantages and disadvantages depending on encounters etc.

From what I hear Pathfinder has also additional Armor friendly tanking feats but these were not ported in (I think some mods add them though).

[frogmoth]

The whole MMOfication of CRPGs and the over-reliance on this whole "tank"-idea is the biggest problem to begin with. The encounter design where stupid mobs of enemies only attack your one frontliner who won't take any hits. If one thing annoyed me in Kingmaker than it is this.
Maybe you could have a better combat-AI where for example archers don't just attack your frontliners, enemies try to circumvent them etc. If i remember correctly, the old IE-games never had this problem to THAT extent.
At the moment i'm running a party with only heavy armor-frontliners and it works fine. Especially my Warpriest with Crane Wing and Shield is able to stand its ground reasonably well... and if he takes some hits, so be it. I find this more interesting then just planting my minmax-powergaming build in the middle of stupid enemy-mobs.

[frogmoth]

This is btw also why i like some of the cheesy things WotR does with its encounter-design. It's not the most elegant way of doing this, but at least enemies that spawn behind you can bring you in trouble.

Also: I play on hard.

[Veolfen]

The MMO trope is the holy trinity, the taunt system, the heal that only heals and the tank that only tank (but deals 0 damages) etc... I like much more the attack of opportunity system and with ennemies who do try to get to your backline etc.. I like roles who are more "realistic".
I'm not speaking of min maxing or agro system tho I'm speaking of 2 frontliners who have heavy armor & weapons. A guy with a sword & shield should be able to kill ♥♥♥♥, he has a freakin weapon, and the guy with a 2h sword but an heavy armor shouldn't be the squishiest guy of the party etc...
Heavy armors don't do their job well enough, especially for non shielded armored guys who aren't working because their AC doesn't get high enough to have any effect.

It really feels that mid to lategame they are lacking from 5 to 10 ac of effectiveness overall.

[ayrtep]

Fighter armour training does close the gap a little. Would allowing more classes access to this feat line help?

Maybe add more armour and shield feats.

I think the idea is that heavy armour is fairly useless unless you specialise in using it. In which case it should be effective. So give more opportunities to specialise.

[frogmoth]

I won't argue with your point about balancing, i just wanted to point out what is one of the underlying issues in my eyes. I also find it annoying when my MC-paladin (big greatsword, heavy armor) gets targeted by all enemy-archers and only survives because of the somewhat gamey last stand mythic feat...

[Veolfen]

Originally posted by ayrtep:

Fighter armour training does close the gap a little. Would allowing more classes access to this feat line help?

It helps, but probably letting this feat to the fighter would be best to keep this fighter spec identity. Maybe bring it to paladins for example, but only 2 levels of it.
It'll probably be better to just straight up brings feats & mythic feats that boost armor from tabletop, give that +1/+2 armor buff to all armors, and maybe a +1 dex modifier buff overall (for lategame potential, so maybe add this armor & dex modifier buff to lategame armors).
A mix of all that could be a great overall buff to heavy armors.

[Veolfen]

Originally posted by frogmoth:

I won't argue with your point about balancing, i just wanted to point out what is one of the underlying issues in my eyes. I also find it annoying when my MC-paladin (big greatsword, heavy armor) gets targeted by all enemy-archers and only survives because of the somewhat gamey last stand mythic feat...

Oh okay !

Do you mean that he survives because of this specific last stand feat rather than heavy armor doing the job a lil bit better or the fact because of this agro system he takes all the focus instead of having some of their archers focusing other members of your group ?

[Bard]

AC is just a woefully outdated game mechanic.

The suspense of rolling to hit works well in tabletop. The instant hit/miss results in a video game feel bad.

[frogmoth]

Originally posted by Veolfen:

Do you mean that he survives because of this specific last stand feat rather than heavy armor doing the job a lil bit better or the fact because of this agro system he takes all the focus instead of having some of their archers focusing other members of your group ?

In that case more the former: I agree that the way the game - and maybe the Pathfinder-system in general? Don't know - balances AC feels a bit off. As i wrote: in the old IE-games this never felt that odd to me. Maybe because the whole system there was way more simple and could be balanced a lot better (you had WAY less of this buffing-overkill you have in Pathfinder). That's why I still maintain that in some important aspects BG2 and ID are still unmatched just in terms of gameplay, even if going back to them i miss the freedom of characterbuilding a lot. Somehow I get the feeling, some people play the Pathfinder-games JUST for the characterbuilding aspect and aren't as critical concerning other aspects of combat (just my subjective impression).

[wendigo211]

As long as you aren't playing on Unfair (and probably also Hard), you should be able to get your AC high enough in armor to be competitive. You don't really get as much AC from splashing for another ability to AC as you did in Kingmaker because the +ability gear is toned down (i.e. no +8 to all abilities for all party members). You just have to look at different dips. E.g. natural armor bonuses from draconic bloodlines, Ice plant hex, mutagen bonuses, Barbarian Rage with defensive stance and beast totem....

That said, while enemies will stick to your tanks for a couple rounds, they will switch targets. So while tanking can buy you some breathing room, it won't hold enemies indefinitely. This isn't like IE games where you can just send your Mage in with Protection from Normal (or Magical) Weapons and let the enemies beat on him with futility while the rest of your party massacres them.

Summons work a bit better in this game for tanking since the AI seems to be programmed to prioritize them (they would be completely useless otherwise), so they can be another approach to survival.

I won't say you don't need a tank, there are some fights where it's useful to have someone who can hold back a dangerous target while you deal with the adds or position your party, but being able to kill enemies quickly is more valuable in this game than it was in Kingmaker.

[frogmoth]

Originally posted by Bard:

AC is just a woefully outdated game mechanic.

The suspense of rolling to hit works well in tabletop. The instant hit/miss results in a video game feel bad.

But some people play this kind of oldschol CRPGs for "outdated game mechanics". There are more than enough "modern" games out there one could play.

[frogmoth]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

As long as you aren't playing on Unfair (and probably also Hard), you should be able to get your AC high enough in armor to be competitive. You don't really get as much AC from splashing for another ability to AC as you did in Kingmaker because the +ability gear is toned down (i.e. no +8 to all abilities for all party members). You just have to look at different dips. E.g. natural armor bonuses from draconic bloodlines, Ice plant hex, mutagen bonuses, Barbarian Rage with defensive stance and beast totem....

That said, while enemies will stick to your tanks for a couple rounds, they will switch targets. So while tanking can buy you some breathing room, it won't hold enemies indefinitely. This isn't like IE games where you can just send your Mage in with Protection from Normal (or Magical) Weapons and let the enemies beat on him with futility while the rest of your party massacres them.

Summons work a bit better in this game for tanking since the AI seems to be programmed to prioritize them (they would be completely useless otherwise), so they can be another approach to survival.

I won't say you don't need a tank, there are some fights where it's useful to have someone who can hold back a dangerous target while you deal with the adds or position your party, but being able to kill enemies quickly is more valuable in this game than it was in Kingmaker.

Good point about the stat-bloat through items, i was pleasently surprised about that as well (till now it least, i still expect to get the +8 belts later in the game).

Also i too find some aspects of combat improved compared to Kingmaker.

In other ways maybe one can argue the IE-games were more unbalanced. I give you that. But i never did any solo-runs in that games and used the kind of tactics you describe...

[ayrtep]

Originally posted by Veolfen:

Originally posted by ayrtep:

Fighter armour training does close the gap a little. Would allowing more classes access to this feat line help?

It helps, but probably letting this feat to the fighter would be best to keep this fighter spec identity. Maybe bring it to paladins for example, but only 2 levels of it.

What about kineticist knight? Or in general a sub-class that is specialised to work in heavy armour.

[Fistimus Maximus]

Originally posted by frogmoth:

Originally posted by Bard:

AC is just a woefully outdated game mechanic.

The suspense of rolling to hit works well in tabletop. The instant hit/miss results in a video game feel bad.

But some people play this kind of oldschol CRPGs for "outdated game mechanics". There are more than enough "modern" games out there one could play.

I think the biggest problem is that dex is king, gives you ac, with feats damage so best tank tends to be the person wearing the light or no armor and most build dip into monk..