Shields and Spiked Shields

[Nazkai]

Trying to understand the differences between these mechanically? And why would someone need weapon focus or improved crit in both shields of the same size? seems like an unnecessary Feat tax especially for a shield basher.

[seeker1]

Maybe this comes from the PnP rules, but this much I've noticed. It seemed a bit odd, but it's one I put in the "things are what they are" category ... I guess.

Regular shields are listed on your armor tab of your inventory. If you want to damage with them in the offhand, you must have shield bash enabled, and the bash damage is based on the size of the shield (you don't get a bonus even from magic shields unless shield master). Nothing else. P.S. read the Shield Bash feat. The damage is not a lot even for large shields, let alone bucklers.

Spiked shields are listed as weapons in the weapons tab of your inventory. If you look at their description, it lists their damage, but not their AC bonus (though they do give an AC bonus as a shield of the same size, it's just not listed.) You can make offhand attacks with spiked shields without using shield bash. They are essentially treated like weapons. They always get their magic bonus to damage.

But no other shields are.

There is a nice corrosive spiked shield in the game that also does bonus acid damage. It's only +2. You won't find any spiked shields with a higher bonus unless ... Toybox. To me it screamed 'Regill' so I gave it to him.

[Nazkai]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Maybe this comes from the PnP rules, but this much I've noticed. It seemed a bit odd, but it's one I put in the "things are what they are" category ... I guess.

Regular shields are listed on your armor tab of your inventory. If you want to damage with them in the offhand, you must have shield bash enabled, and the bash damage is based on the size of the shield (you don't get a bonus even from magic shields unless shield master). Nothing else. P.S. read the Shield Bash feat. The damage is not a lot even for large shields, let alone bucklers.

Spiked shields are listed as weapons in the weapons tab of your inventory. If you look at their description, it lists their damage, but not their AC bonus (though they do give an AC bonus as a shield of the same size, it's just not listed.) You can make offhand attacks with spiked shields without using shield bash. They are essentially treated like weapons. They always get their magic bonus to damage.

But no other shields are.

There is a nice corrosive spiked shield in the game that also does bonus acid damage. It's only +2. You won't find any spiked shields with a higher bonus unless ... Toybox. To me it screamed 'Regill' so I gave it to him.

Thanks That's helpful .

So I have Seelah as as TWF Shield Mastery shield basher atm (is there any reason I would choose a regular shield of the same size and damage as a Spiked in my case or?)

And sadly I made the mistake of Improved Crit = Heavy Shield which does not also cover spiked shields and feels like a waste or are the best shieilds for bashing non spiked?

[seeker1]

Let me just put it this way. You can do some damage with regular shields if you shield bash and then take shield mastery. Shield mastery will also add STR and magic bonus, which ain't nothing . But again: read the feat ... a large shield does 1d4 damage, (bucklers and light 1d3), and maybe a tower MIGHT do more, but you can't bash with it. In the later game, your enemies are sneezing at that. No regular shield will ever carry extra damage like fire or corrosive, also.

Seriously, if you're into using your shield as a weapon (as well as a shield), use spiked shields, and yes anything that helps an offhand weapon as far as feats etc. helps your offhand attack with it. I look at it this way. Characters with shields get a bit of bonus damage with shield bash. But if you wanna do a LOT, go spiked shield. (Still, to be honest, to be superseded if you have an actual 2nd weapon there, but then to be expected. Spiked shield is the best path to adding to both defense and offense. Your "tankies" should take it.)

[Nazkai]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Let me just put it this way. You can do some damage with regular shields if you shield bash and then take shield mastery. Shield mastery will also add STR and magic bonus, which ain't nothing . But again: read the feat ... a large shield does 1d4 damage, (bucklers and light 1d3), and maybe a tower MIGHT do more, but you can't bash with it. In the later game, your enemies are sneezing at that. No regular shield will ever carry extra damage like fire or corrosive, also.

Seriously, if you're into using your shield as a weapon (as well as a shield), use spiked shields, and yes anything that helps an offhand weapon as far as feats etc. helps your offhand attack with it. I look at it this way. Characters with shields get a bit of bonus damage with shield bash. But if you wanna do a LOT, go spiked shield. (Still, to be honest, to be superseded if you have an actual 2nd weapon there, but then to be expected. Spiked shield is the best path to adding to both defense and offense. Your "tankies" should take it.)

Thanks much appreciated.

So one last question - offensively Spiked shields sound like the clear winner in WOTR but Defensively?

I.E. On a TWF Tank when would it be better to go with a non spiked shield then?

Sounds like only if the shield in question had some good innate powers or buffs to it then yeah?

[seeker1]

The only limit isn't intrinsic. You can find +5 tower or large shields in the game. There is no spiked shield you can find that is more than +2. There IS that corrosive one that also has 1d6 additional acid damage. IIRC, there's also one with a unique property where the spikes injure anybody who attacks you.

Unless, ToyBox.

I think all spiked shields are large and are as protective as any other large shield. I admit it's a bit wonky ... their description doesn't SAY that onscreen and you might get confused as they appear in your weapons inventory tab.

[Dalaule]

Can always have the shield warpriest make the shields do 2d8 dmg @ lvl 20 :p

[dwarner]

Originally posted by Nazkai:

Originally posted by seeker1:

Let me just put it this way. You can do some damage with regular shields if you shield bash and then take shield mastery. Shield mastery will also add STR and magic bonus, which ain't nothing . But again: read the feat ... a large shield does 1d4 damage, (bucklers and light 1d3), and maybe a tower MIGHT do more, but you can't bash with it. In the later game, your enemies are sneezing at that. No regular shield will ever carry extra damage like fire or corrosive, also.

Seriously, if you're into using your shield as a weapon (as well as a shield), use spiked shields, and yes anything that helps an offhand weapon as far as feats etc. helps your offhand attack with it. I look at it this way. Characters with shields get a bit of bonus damage with shield bash. But if you wanna do a LOT, go spiked shield. (Still, to be honest, to be superseded if you have an actual 2nd weapon there, but then to be expected. Spiked shield is the best path to adding to both defense and offense. Your "tankies" should take it.)

Thanks much appreciated.

So one last question - offensively Spiked shields sound like the clear winner in WOTR but Defensively?

I.E. On a TWF Tank when would it be better to go with a non spiked shield then?

Sounds like only if the shield in question had some good innate powers or buffs to it then yeah?

You start to get good bashing shields by midgame. You can use regular Magic Shields before that and they'll still do good damage with Magic Weapon, Greater and other bonuses (like Seelah's Smite).

Greybor makes a great Shield Basher (you can get Shield Bash at 10 via Combat Style and Mastery at 11) since the Bash picks up both his Sneaks and his Studied Target bonus and he can use the added AC. Likewise high Strength and Enlarge bonuses also count for Shield Bashing (although you'd need Double Slice for the full STR bonus).

Balanced Defender Sword gives +3 stacking AB bonus to both the Sword itself and the Bash. With Mastery's +5 and the +5 you can get from Magic Weapon, Greater Shields can have some of the highest AB in the game.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by seeker1:

The only limit isn't intrinsic. You can find +5 tower or large shields in the game. There is no spiked shield you can find that is more than +2. There IS that corrosive one that also has 1d6 additional acid damage. IIRC, there's also one with a unique property where the spikes injure anybody who attacks you.

Unless, ToyBox.

I think all spiked shields are large and are as protective as any other large shield. I admit it's a bit wonky ... their description doesn't SAY that onscreen and you might get confused as they appear in your weapons inventory tab.

There's no reason to use Toybox. Skeleton Salesman sells a Holy Shield in Act 3 and there are several outstanding bashing shields from there on out. I don't think you can Bash with a Tower although I could be mistaken.

[seeker1]

You can't bash with a tower shield.

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't have to share it. At endgame, since I couldn't find a corrosive or flaming (or anything) +5 spiked shield, I made it, and used it. I know exactly the holy shield you're referring to. I gave it to Seelah, and she bashes with it. (P.S. I could have made a +8 one with 5d6 sonic damage but seemed like overkill.)

As to why I use ToyBox you CAN use it for a lot of things. Make developer-borked quests work, give yourself unattainable items (like scroll kit IX), counteract aspects of the game that are freaking daft as designed if functioning as intended, or even if you touch nothing, it's fascinating to just look around and see what various properties on items do. That's the kind of R & D that helps you play better. Eh?

Hey man. It's got a Kill All Enemies button. That is right. Hit it and watch anything in the game die. I tried it once for S & G. It will vaporize anything in the game (did not test against Areelu - figured that might well be plot armored).

Ya know, I don't use it. Does it bother me there might be someone somewhere out there playing on Story who hits it in every battle?

Not.one.freaking.iota. "It's their game ..."

Have a nice day.

P.S. I have never once asked them to nerf anything, they do to me the best possible thing, which is give all players a difficulty slider.

I know there are people who say you aren't playing it if you don't play on Core. Some say unless Daring or Unfair. They are entitled to their opinion. I just don't give a f about it.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by seeker1:

You can't bash with a tower shield.

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't have to share it. At endgame, since I couldn't find a corrosive or flaming (or anything) +5 spiked shield, I made it, and used it. I know exactly the holy shield you're referring to. I gave it to Seelah, and she bashes with it. (P.S. I could have made a +8 one with 5d6 sonic damage but seemed like overkill.)

As to why I use ToyBox you CAN use it for a lot of things. Make developer-borked quests work, give yourself unattainable items (like scroll kit IX), counteract aspects of the game that are freaking daft as designed if functioning as intended, or even if you touch nothing, it's fascinating to just look around and see what various properties on items do. That's the kind of R & D that helps you play better. Eh?

Hey man. It's got a Kill All Enemies button. That is right. Hit it and watch anything in the game die. I tried it once for S & G. It will vaporize anything in the game (did not test against Areelu - figured that might well be plot armored).

Ya know, I don't use it. Does it bother me there might be somewhere out there playing on Story who hits it in every battle?

Not.one.freaking.iota. "It's their game ..."

Have a nice day.

P.S. I have never once asked them to nerf anything, they do to me the best possible thing, which is give all players a difficulty slider.

Thanks for sharing.

There's an unreal bashing shield at the end of Act 4. It's worth building around.

[seeker1]

Cool. Nazkai might be interested. I think I've found it and used it. Feel free to offer any tips you like.

I never reject (good) advice, sometimes I find attitudes irritating. Don't take it too personally. There seem to be a toxic culture of folks in MMOs these days who will yell at you to "git gud" and kick you from groups if your damage meter is 0.0001% below best output. I hate those people. Fortunately in SP-RPGs I don't have to deal with them.

There are some friendly people who will offer you friendly advice and say, "Ya know, maybe this heal spell works better in this situation, just thought you should know." I like those people. They want you to get better. They just don't bark at you. Or kick you.

[Nazkai]

I appreciate all the help it's both educated me and given me ideas for this and subsequent playthroughs!

[dwarner]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Cool. Nazkai might be interested. I think I've found it and used it. Feel free to offer any tips you like.

I never reject (good) advice, sometimes I find attitudes irritating. Don't take it too personally. There seem to be a toxic culture of folks in MMOs these days who will yell at you to "git gud" and kick you from groups if your damage meter is 0.0001% below best output. I hate those people. Fortunately in SP-RPGs I don't have to deal with them.

I'm fighting the MMO culture. It can really get people off track in this game both tactically and in how narrowly they approach the classes they choose and party make-up, so I can be blunt with people who start out with that attitude. Fighting fire with fire.

[Nazkai]

Been Years since I enjoyed an MMO personally - last time would have been City of Heroes but then - Like Pathfinder that game had a lot of unique builds and lore to it and there were no good super hero RPGS aside from Freedom Force (to a degree) back then

[Wither]

It doesn't give you much damage, it lower your tank AB and does not give AC. Seriously just get another weapon.