Phantasmal Mage Metamagic ?s

[mike.xulima]

I leveled one to 20th to test some things out and see how a build might go. I especially wanted to see how their metamagic reservoir abilities work.

I can't seem to get Selective Spell to kick in for any spells? Are there any Illusion spells that qualify for it?

Also does Shadow Evocation not qualify for Empower and Maximize? If not which Illusion spells do they work with?

Feels like there's not much use for those 3 for Illusion spells, am I missing something?

Extend, Quicken and Persistent seemed to all work. Extend could not be stacked with the Extend feat though.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

An existing Illusion specialist should be able to take Mythic powers beyond where a non-Illusionist could. And the name and description of the EA feat make clear what it exists for - to let you access a new school of magic at a level equal to another school you already have focused in.

An Illusion specialist gets bonus Illusion slots and can cast more Illusion spells. A Divination specialist sacrifices virtually all bonus spell slots except level 8-9, because Divination school has no offensive spells at those levels. The only really good offensive spell Divination has is Prediction of Failure (I do not consider Sense Vitals good for a caster, because Bolster completely outshines it and precision damage is incompatible with Bolster).

When it comes to not being able to take spell focus feats in the school you're applying expanded arsenal to, expanded arsenal build suffers a -2 DC disadvantage in the very early game (before you reach Nulkineth). This disadvantage might not seem significant to a clown like you who has never even managed to beat core, but to anyone who has made a 0-100% Unfair run without any respecs, this disadvantage is very significant as it is the very early game where DC casters are at their weakest due to lack of tools and gear and very limited spell options.

Conclusion: you do not understand the sacrifices an expanded arsenal build has to make and once again prove that your ignorant opinions are worthless and can be discarded on the spot.

[mike.xulima]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

An existing Illusion specialist should be able to take Mythic powers beyond where a non-Illusionist could. And the name and description of the EA feat make clear what it exists for - to let you access a new school of magic at a level equal to another school you already have focused in.

An Illusion specialist gets bonus Illusion slots and can cast more Illusion spells. A Divination specialist sacrifices virtually all bonus spell slots except level 8-9, because Divination school has no offensive spells at those levels. The only really good offensive spell Divination has is Prediction of Failure (I do not consider Sense Vitals good for a caster, because Bolster completely outshines it and precision damage is incompatible with Bolster).

When it comes to not being able to take spell focus feats in the school you're applying expanded arsenal to, expanded arsenal build suffers a -2 DC disadvantage in the very early game (before you reach Nulkineth). This disadvantage might not seem significant to a clown like you who has never even managed to beat core, but to anyone who has made a 0-100% Unfair run without any respecs, this disadvantage is very significant as it is the very early game where DC casters are at their weakest due to lack of tools and gear and very limited spell options.

Conclusion: you do not understand the sacrifices an expanded arsenal build has to make and once again prove that your ignorant opinions are worthless and can be discarded on the spot.

You mean an EA exploit build Jimmy. When it comes to an arrogant, cowardly weasel like you, you can't just call a bug and bug and admit you're a bug exploiter. Weak sauce Jim.

[mike.xulima]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

Ray Spells don't have DCs. Pretty sure increasing their DC doesn't do anything.

I'll run through numbers RQ.

Enemy has a save of 80. High but not uncommon. We'll also say you're casting a level 9 spell.
10 base, 1 gnome, lets be super generous and call it +15 from int, level 9 spell, +2 spell level from arcanist pool, +2 dc from arcanist pool, 4 sf/gsf/msf, +2 ring, +2 robe, +2 necklace, +2 cloak, +2 goggles, + 2 head, +2 book bonus.
Lets say they all apply at once to the spell you're casting. (they don't, or if they do they likely fail automatically beause the enemy is immune to one of the subschools, but lets pretend.)

You're now at ~+57. IE it's basically impossible for your spell to work. (I genuinely do not think it's possible to get INT that high unless you're doing a Demon run, but i could be wrong.) You're fundamentally incapable of harming that enemy with your DC spells. I could be missing 3-8 of DC bonuses from mythic stuff, it woulnd't actually make much difference, your spells just aren't going to work reliably.

Now, there are ways you can debuff enemies saves. Evil Eye, Frightened/shaken, mind fog, ect. We'll pretend those don't also typically require saves (those same saves you already can't beat) to work.
Even considering that, now you're not spending 1 spell slot to make that illusion spell work, you're spending 2 or 3 or 4 to make that illusion spell work, if you're lucky (ie if your debuffs or dispells work the first time). At which point the fight is already over because chances are either you're dead or Seelah, Lan or Ember have already torn the enemy in half and your illusionist spent 2-4 rounds setting up for nothing.

Last I checked scribed scrolls were also 'bugged.' They're adding caster level to DC which they aren't supposed to. So there's that. You suggested way around it is just as exploitative.

But even if that's fixed (didn't see it in the patch notes) and/or you buy scrolls to avoid the issue, guess what? Still won't work. Because all of the above mentioned DC problems are still present, except your gear isn't boosting those schools so the DCs are much, much worse. And now you're operating with a very limited selection of scrolls, the metamagic feats you didn't learn because you're using arcanist pools won't apply, your DCs will suck because the feats don't apply, ect.

You'll be an aggressively mediocre illusionist who's backup plan in the case of high saves or immunities is to be an even worse caster of some other kind.

I'm not here to make inane quasi-moral judgements about what is or isn't a bug exploit. Ultimately, I don't care. I'm trying to help you, and I'm trying to be nice about it, so stow the attitude. Do what you want. I'm just telling you what does/doesn't work on normal difficulty or above.

Being an illusionist without 'exploiting bugs' is one of those things.

It'll work until level 10 ish (though even before then optional bosses will laugh at you) but it will become more or less a waste of time pretty quickly past that point, because you'll have taken every DC boosting feat and gotten every DC boosting item available to you, so you're out of ways to scale your DCs up, but enemy DCs will continue to scale.


This stuff is a very large part of the reason Kineticist, Angle Oracle/Cleric and Lich Wizard/Sorcerer are so strong/well regarded. They all have a bunch of 'no save' spells/abilities that do tons of damage (on top of their massive pile of buffs) so you just don't have to deal with those issues.

If Ray spells work, then what is the problem? You can take EA in to Evocation and use them as a backup plan. That's something the rules allow and that the developers clearly intended/endorsed to happen. No bug exploitation involved.

And you can also be a buffer. No enemy DCs will get in the way of that. Whatever happened to being versatile/flexible, especially with memorization spell casting classes?

If you insist on making spells that aren't supposed to work against certain enemies work via an obvious bug in Expanded Arsenal, then just know that's what it is - a choice to exploit a bug to make those spells "work". Just like it would be if there was a way to override immunity to sneak attack for example so your sneak attack character could "work" too. Rather than looking for backups plans to sneak attack.

"I'm not here to make inane quasi-moral judgements about what is or isn't a bug exploit"

I'm not making a moral judgement either, but you just have to admit that only via exploiting a bug in EA can you get the DC stacking effect. It makes no RP sense at all and goes directly against the way the feat was documented. I've said many times I don't judge or care how other people play the game, it is their money that they spent and their time to use for their enjoyment. Personally my enjoyment comes a lot from RP in games like these, and an exploit like this would ruin that for me.

I do make a judgement in regards to Jimmy that he's being an arrogant such and such for acting like exploiting said bug somehow makes him a master of game mechanics and above all other players who he can then belittle. I judge him to be an insecure person who is probably trying to make up for shortcomings in his real life.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

An Illusion specialist gets bonus Illusion slots and can cast more Illusion spells. A Divination specialist sacrifices virtually all bonus spell slots except level 8-9, because Divination school has no offensive spells at those levels. The only really good offensive spell Divination has is Prediction of Failure (I do not consider Sense Vitals good for a caster, because Bolster completely outshines it and precision damage is incompatible with Bolster).

When it comes to not being able to take spell focus feats in the school you're applying expanded arsenal to, expanded arsenal build suffers a -2 DC disadvantage in the very early game (before you reach Nulkineth). This disadvantage might not seem significant to a clown like you who has never even managed to beat core, but to anyone who has made a 0-100% Unfair run without any respecs, this disadvantage is very significant as it is the very early game where DC casters are at their weakest due to lack of tools and gear and very limited spell options.

Conclusion: you do not understand the sacrifices an expanded arsenal build has to make and once again prove that your ignorant opinions are worthless and can be discarded on the spot.

You mean an EA exploit build Jimmy. When it comes to an arrogant, cowardly weasel like you, you can't just call a bug and bug and admit you're a bug exploiter. Weak sauce Jim.

You don't get to decide what is a bug and what isn't, Only Owlcat does and they have known about EA functionality since beta. The arrogant one in this situation is you and no one else since you think your worthless opinion somehow matters more than that of the developer who defines the rules and balance. EA is never getting changed, because it's an integral part of good caster builds at difficulties above core, but, of course, you wouldn't know anything about those difficulties.

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

spells that aren't supposed to work against certain enemies

All spells are supposed to work against all enemies, Owlcat has ensured that, at least in the main campaign. Insane saving throws are overcome by EA, outright immunities are beaten by Lich's Deadly Magic and Rod of the Grandmaster as well as certain bloodlines like Undead and Serpentine. You don't get to define what is supposed to work and what isn't, if a spell is in the game, it's supposed to work, because Owlcat put it there. Your opinions on the matter are worth less than garbage.

[Princess Pilfer]

Ok, but if you're spending all your time and spellslots buffing and/or casting rays because your illusion spells just don't work, you're not really getting to play an illusionst now are you? You're playing a decent buff-bot and a bad ray-caster with a bunch of illusion specialties they can't actually use on anything.

It's not 'certain enemies' it's 'every enemy that matters.' Not as a joke, all of them. Keep in mind, I was being very generous with the numbers i showed you, most of the time 4-6 of that won't apply because the enemy is immune to the relevant subschool being boosted so you can't use it, and you're probably not going to have 40 intelligence so there goes another 5-10. (I think Demon can with Incense alchemist buffing them but that's the only way I know.)

Everything strong enough that any 1 member of party couldn't have killed it in 1 round anyways is going to have saves too high for your spells to work against it past the midgame. That's just the reality of it.

There *are not* backup plans for Sneak Attack reliant characters. That's the thing. Anything a sneak-attack reliant character like your typical rogue could do would be *less effective* than just continuing to flail at the enemy that's immune to most of their damage. The 'Backup plan' is 'play a different class/build that doesn't rely on sneak attack for most of their damage.'

And I already explained the issues with your proposed 'backup plans' for illusion casting. Mainly, that they won't work.


If you insist, and refuse to do what it takes to make it actually effective, I *strongly* recommend you turn the difficulty down 2 or 3 settings. The immunities problem doesn't go away but at least your DC scaling (if you're properly invested) will be better able to keep up with the enemies saves, so your spells might actually work against something that poses a threat past the mid-game.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

The immunities problem doesn't go away

The immunity problem goes away for everyone in chapter 5:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2783056947

For Lich, enemy immunity problems go away right after he reaches mythic rank 3 in Drezen via Deadly Magic Lich power. However, Lich pays for this by being the weakest DC caster in the game after Lord Beyond the Grave has been completely gutted.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

You don't get to decide what is a bug and what isn't,
...
All spells are supposed to work against all enemies

By your logic, you don't get to decide what Owlcat intended or didn't intend. Which makes

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Your opinions on the matter are worth less than garbage.

very ironic.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

You don't get to decide what is a bug and what isn't,
...
All spells are supposed to work against all enemies

By your logic, you don't get to decide what Owlcat intended or didn't intend. Which makes

So what you're trying to say is that Owlcat put spells into the game that are not supposed to work because you say so? I bet you felt really smart when you wrote that.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by night4:

By your logic, you don't get to decide what Owlcat intended or didn't intend. Which makes

So what you're trying to say is that Owlcat put spells into the game that are not supposed to work because you say so? I bet you felt really smart when you wrote that.

You don't get to decide what Owlcat intended, only Owlcat does. So I'm going to need proof directly from Owlcat to back up your claims.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

So what you're trying to say is that Owlcat put spells into the game that are not supposed to work because you say so? I bet you felt really smart when you wrote that.

You don't get to decide what Owlcat intended, only Owlcat does. So I'm going to need proof directly from Owlcat to back up your claims.

My logic is very simple: Owlcat put a spell into the game -> therefore that spell is supposed to work. Owlcat also gave the player tools to overcome insanely high enemy saves and enemy magic/spell immunities. All of this currently exists in the game and actually works. Owlcat has never said that EA or Grandmaster's Rod are not supposed to work the way they do now.

Now, let's see your mental gymnastics about which spells aren't supposed to work based on nothing more than your worthless opinions. Go.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

My logic is very simple: Owlcat put a spell into the game -> therefore that spell is supposed to work. Owlcat also gave the player tools to overcome insanely high enemy saves and enemy magic/spell immunities. All of this currently exists in the game and actually works. Owlcat has never said that EA or Grandmaster's Rod are not supposed to work the way they do now.

Now, let's see your mental gymnastics about which spells aren't supposed to work based on nothing more than your worthless opinions. Go.

That's not proof from directly Owlcat's mouth. That's your "worthless opinion".

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

My logic is very simple: Owlcat put a spell into the game -> therefore that spell is supposed to work. Owlcat also gave the player tools to overcome insanely high enemy saves and enemy magic/spell immunities. All of this currently exists in the game and actually works. Owlcat has never said that EA or Grandmaster's Rod are not supposed to work the way they do now.

Now, let's see your mental gymnastics about which spells aren't supposed to work based on nothing more than your worthless opinions. Go.

That's not proof from directly Owlcat's mouth. That's your "worthless opinion".

A spell put into the game is supposed to work, otherwise it has no reason to exist. The fact that the spell has been put into the game is proof of developer's intent that the spell should work. Now, you are going to exercise some mental gymnastics and explain to me why, according to your worthless opinions, spells put into the game are not supposed to work when the developer never said they shouldn't. Go.

[mike.xulima]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

You mean an EA exploit build Jimmy. When it comes to an arrogant, cowardly weasel like you, you can't just call a bug and bug and admit you're a bug exploiter. Weak sauce Jim.

You don't get to decide what is a bug and what isn't, Only Owlcat does and they have known about EA functionality since beta. The arrogant one in this situation is you and no one else since you think your worthless opinion somehow matters more than that of the developer who defines the rules and balance. EA is never getting changed, because it's an integral part of good caster builds at difficulties above core, but, of course, you wouldn't know anything about those difficulties.

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

spells that aren't supposed to work against certain enemies

All spells are supposed to work against all enemies, Owlcat has ensured that, at least in the main campaign. Insane saving throws are overcome by EA, outright immunities are beaten by Lich's Deadly Magic and Rod of the Grandmaster as well as certain bloodlines like Undead and Serpentine. You don't get to define what is supposed to work and what isn't, if a spell is in the game, it's supposed to work, because Owlcat put it there. Your opinions on the matter are worth less than garbage.

Owlcat did not intend for EA to stack DC bonuses from all schools in to a school that you never specialized in, and that's all that's really relevant here. Because as you've moaned about, you can't reach sufficient DCs otherwise. So you choose to exploit a bug rather than to be flexible/inventive.

[mike.xulima]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by night4:

That's not proof from directly Owlcat's mouth. That's your "worthless opinion".

A spell put into the game is supposed to work, otherwise it has no reason to exist. The fact that the spell has been put into the game is proof of developer's intent that the spell should work. Now, you are going to exercise some mental gymnastics and explain to me why, according to your worthless opinions, spells put into the game are not supposed to work when the developer never said they shouldn't. Go.

And they do work against many enemies. You moaning about when they don't work and forcing them to work via a bug exploit is just that.

[mike.xulima]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

My logic is very simple: Owlcat put a spell into the game -> therefore that spell is supposed to work. Owlcat also gave the player tools to overcome insanely high enemy saves and enemy magic/spell immunities. All of this currently exists in the game and actually works. Owlcat has never said that EA or Grandmaster's Rod are not supposed to work the way they do now.

Now, let's see your mental gymnastics about which spells aren't supposed to work based on nothing more than your worthless opinions. Go.

That's not proof from directly Owlcat's mouth. That's your "worthless opinion".

And this is the same weasel who won't answer simple questions to validate why EA should work the way he thinks it should and why it's not a bug.

Then he dodges and won't give his opinion - then he's "not authorized". This guy must be a small, insecure person in RL and is trying to cover up for his shortcomings here.