Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Rename Azata 'chain lightning'
Because that's almost literally all it's good for. People abused bugs with Zippy Magic and relied heavily on Aivu because *everything else it has is bad* compared to what other paths offer, and now you've taken that away.

Everything except zippy magic ranges from 'mediocre' to 'worthless' and the newly weakned Aviu can't even make up the difference for melee azata by reliably stripping enemies of their buffs.

And it's not even the best for chain lightning/hellfire ray spam. Demon is. Then Lich. Then Azata.
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1630/30 megjegyzés mutatása
MjKorz eredeti hozzászólása:
Zippy magic is completely irrelevant on an Azata, because the strongest Azata build is an Illusion or Enchantment DC caster. The only superpower that matters is Favorable Magic, everything else is just flavor.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778176382

Moreover, Azata blows lich out of the water as a caster, because Lich has no access to powers that grant its spells advantage when trying to beat enemy saving throws (i.e. enemy rolls twice and takes the worse result) and because lich gets no DC bonuses from its mythic path up until chapter 5 where it finally gets its transformation and even then the total DC bonus is lower relative to Azata (5 for lich vs 7 for Azata).

And even though Aivu CL30+ dispel was quite powerful, it is not needed on a proper Azata DC caster build. Azata has enough juice to bruteforce all saves in the game on unfair difficulty.

That's complete BS.
Lich has spells that aren't subject to spell resistance, or saving throws for that matter. I don't think Azata (or anyone else, side from Angel, who ALSO has spells that ignore spell resists and don't have DC) can even come close to lich
HopeJesus4evs eredeti hozzászólása:
That's complete BS.
Lich has spells that aren't subject to spell resistance, or saving throws for that matter. I don't think Azata (or anyone else, side from Angel, who ALSO has spells that ignore spell resists and don't have DC) can even come close to lich

Spell Resistance is irrelevant. Favorable Magic gives Azata the ability to overcome the highest spell resistance in the game without failure, since it allows Azata to roll spell penetration twice and take the better result.

Lich spells are irrelevant:

1. Negative Eruption is 10*CL damage spell that deals (350 + 35*2)*1.5 = 630 damage at CL35 when bolstered and empowered (it does not need to be maximized). Endgame unfair mobs have HP in the range of 1k. Thus, this level 9 spell needs to be cast twice to beat a group of endgame mobs. Meanwhile, Weird cast by Azata crushes all saving throws on unfair and clears the entire screen in a single cast.

2. Absolute Death is a single target spell that you get only in chapter 5. Inferior to AoE Weird instant death.

3. Corrupt Magic is a strong dispel and a good source of effective DC, but it is a 9th level spell and needs an action to be cast. It is also a single target spell. Azata does not need any dispeling to crush unfair boss saves like the lich does, because Azata has a 1.05-1.95 chance of success multiplier from Favorable Magic while lich does not. Azata can cast two Weirds per round as a swift action + standard action, both are AoE screen clears. Lich needs to waste the swift action and 9th level spellslot on corrupt magic.

Only thing lich has over Azata is earlier access to higher level spells, but at the cost of significantly lower DC casting success rates which is a very noticeable disadvantage on unfair difficulty where everything has bloated saves.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: MjKorz; 2022. márc. 13., 6:41
MjKorz eredeti hozzászólása:
Zippy magic is completely irrelevant on an Azata, because the strongest Azata build is an Illusion or Enchantment DC caster. The only superpower that matters is Favorable Magic, everything else is just flavor.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778176382

Moreover, Azata blows lich out of the water as a caster, because Lich has no access to powers that grant its spells advantage when trying to beat enemy saving throws (i.e. enemy rolls twice and takes the worse result) and because lich gets no DC bonuses from its mythic path up until chapter 5 where it finally gets its transformation and even then the total DC bonus is lower relative to Azata (5 for lich vs 7 for Azata).

And even though Aivu CL30+ dispel was quite powerful, it is not needed on a proper Azata DC caster build. Azata has enough juice to bruteforce all saves in the game on unfair difficulty.
a lich and angel just ignore spell resistance and saves. they always doing max dmg because you dont have to worry about saves or SR, which is clearly 100 times better than an enemy that gets to keep that stuff and roll twice with disadvantage. wtf are you even talking about. they also have full mythic casting with insane caster level and gain access to level 9 spells in act 3 when most classes have lvl 4 or 5 spells. a lich or angel with merged spell book is easily the most powerful mythic and its not even close.

when i play on hard with my lich, i constantly check the difficulty because it feels like it got switched to casual because you just kill everything and there is nothing they can do to stop it without a save or spell resistance. fights that took my other mythics several attempts on core or hard difficulty, like creeping darkness, can be solo'd by a naked angel or lich on your first try
Legutóbb szerkesztette: IRuleAll; 2022. márc. 13., 7:17
IRuleAll eredeti hozzászólása:
MjKorz eredeti hozzászólása:
Zippy magic is completely irrelevant on an Azata, because the strongest Azata build is an Illusion or Enchantment DC caster. The only superpower that matters is Favorable Magic, everything else is just flavor.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778176382

Moreover, Azata blows lich out of the water as a caster, because Lich has no access to powers that grant its spells advantage when trying to beat enemy saving throws (i.e. enemy rolls twice and takes the worse result) and because lich gets no DC bonuses from its mythic path up until chapter 5 where it finally gets its transformation and even then the total DC bonus is lower relative to Azata (5 for lich vs 7 for Azata).

And even though Aivu CL30+ dispel was quite powerful, it is not needed on a proper Azata DC caster build. Azata has enough juice to bruteforce all saves in the game on unfair difficulty.
a lich and angel just ignore spell resistance and saves. they always doing max dmg because you dont have to worry about saves or SR, which is clearly 100 times better than an enemy that gets to keep that stuff and roll twice with disadvantage. wtf are you even talking about. they also have full mythic casting with insane caster level and gain access to level 9 spells in act 3 when most classes have lvl 4 or 5 spells. a lich or angel with merged spell book is easily the most powerful mythic and its not even close.

I'm talking about the reality of the game, which you seem to be ignorant of. Reality where direct damage builds of any kind cannot compete with DC casters. Not even hellfire ray builds that were capable of doing 22k+ damage per cast pre-nerf, because hellfire ray is not an AoE spell.

Like I said before: spell resistance is completely irrelevant, Azata overcomes spell resistance without fail starting from chapter 3 when Lich/Angel get to merge spellbooks and get their bonus caster levels.

The "max damage" Angel/Lich do is a joke compared to instant death spells. Bolstered+Empowered Negative Eruption does 630 AoE damage? Weird clears the screen regardless of enemy HP and endgame trash mobs have up to 1k health on unfair difficulty.

Angel can inflict 1k damage with a single cast of Bolt of Justice? Azata instantly kills 2600hp unfair Deskari with a quickened Phantasmal Killer.

Early access to Level 9 spells means nothing, when those spells are cast at a massive success rate disadvantage compared to Favorable Magic Azata. Phantasmal Killer is a spell you get at level 7 in chapter 2 and it allows Azata to instantly kill any boss in the game on any difficulty.

The most powerful casters in the game are Demon and Azata, the rest suffer from a massive powergap, because they have no inherent spell persistency. Demon also gets a massive +19 DC boost, Azata gets only +7. Lich gets only +5 and no spell persistency. Angel is the same as Lich.

Please, go load your angel save and show me a single round unfair Baphomet, Deskari and Areelu kills. Surely you can do it, if your claims about the power of direct damage casters are true. Here's mine (it's Demon, but Azata can do the same):

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778353915

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778015981

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778021190

And stop talking about Hard difficulty like it's some sort of measuring stick, because it's not.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: MjKorz; 2022. márc. 13., 7:35
jutschi78 eredeti hozzászólása:
Princess Pilfer eredeti hozzászólása:
Second breath is not supposed to restore your abilities. But lets assume it does or I read the description wrong, or the description lies, doesn't matter.

AC is comparatively easy to come by, you can get well over 80 without involving mythic anything on a wide variety of class combinations. And Incredible Might is...less than impressive. It's a morale bonus. It's a strong morale bonus, but the most important part of it (the attack) you can get some or all of (depending on where you are in the game and how much side content you did) from heroism or greater heroism. The 3-8 damage is nice but when you're using grave singer and getting a bazillion damage from the 5x crits anyways, +/- 15-40 doesn't...really make a huge difference, whatever you just full attacked is dead anyways.

No, you're just deliberately being an ass, and you know it.

Hey, no insults! MjKorz shows here plenty ways, what the Azata path can do more than chain-ligthning and zippy magic.

I am surprised, that you can stack 6 mutagens. Never thougt to try that (well, know the pnp rules and i am quite sure, that it was intended to have only one mutagen active at time). But that it i working here is good to know. Well i propably will not do this,

Btw: what about supersonic speed? Perma haste don't seem that impressive, because it only works to yourself and you have plenty ways, to gain haste. So that leaves the 20 % against attacks and 10 % against spells.

Is that worh to get that superpower?
I mean not really. Any mythic path can DC cast. Also Angel and Lich don't even have to DC cast past mid game they can just go 'haha no save you die'. Also, chain lighting spam *is* DC casting.

Supersonic speed isn't actually good. You can just cast haste and some spell that grants you concealment or invisibility. Even towards the late game when true seeing starts to be pretty common, a lot of the time you can dispel it.

I'm like 80% sure you can't do the mutagen stacking anymore because they fixed a lot of Azata spells, but I'm too lazy to actually go check. But even if you can, I don't actually care. The larger issue (that Azata supports an extremely narrow range of builds since they 'fixed' it) remains. Even like unmerged arcane angel builds get more out of angel than most builds get out of azata.
Princess Pilfer eredeti hozzászólása:
Any mythic path can DC cast.
Interesting statement. Care to show me how you beat the 50 Will saving throw of Nocticula's Palace Guard Balors with a Trickster that has precisely zero DC bonuses from their mythic path? Unfair difficulty, of course.

Princess Pilfer eredeti hozzászólása:
Angel and Lich don't even have to DC cast past mid game they can just go 'haha no save you die'.
Care to show me your single round Baphomet, Deskari and Areelu kills as Angel or Lich without using instant death spells? Unfair difficulty, of course.

And note: I'm not even asking you to kill the demon lords on unfair difficulty as a swift action (something Azata/Demon arcane casters can do).
Legutóbb szerkesztette: MjKorz; 2022. márc. 13., 22:27
To anyone replying to MjKorz, he is an Owlcat apologist who basically answers any balancing issue with "oh yeah here is this extremely specific way to play the game in which this works, so its completely ok".

I recommend just blocking him like I did as he is just a troll at this point.

Anyone can look up a guide and follow it to a T. Takes a good game to make non-theorycrafted builds viable which Owlcat seems to not actually care about considering how much they murdered Azata path while leaving Lich and Angel essentially untouched.

Then again they also murdered the whole game and a good amount of people cannot even boot it up at this moment, with no fix in quite some time.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: Fingusa of the East; 2022. márc. 14., 6:33
Princess Pilfer eredeti hozzászólása:
Because that's almost literally all it's good for. People abused bugs with Zippy Magic and relied heavily on Aivu because *everything else it has is bad* compared to what other paths offer, and now you've taken that away.

Everything except zippy magic ranges from 'mediocre' to 'worthless' and the newly weakned Aviu can't even make up the difference for melee azata by reliably stripping enemies of their buffs.

And it's not even the best for chain lightning/hellfire ray spam. Demon is. Then Lich. Then Azata.
all a bunch of opinions, azata is really fun with bards skalds, barbarians magus and blood rager.

you get 4 super powers, all skilled is really useful as it opens up a ton of options, incredible endurance makes you tanky as hell, super strength i cant say, but super speed is really nice.

aivu is still useful, just not op I believe she still get resurrection and greater restoration
Aliceskysareblue eredeti hozzászólása:
you get 4 super powers, all skilled is really useful as it opens up a ton of options, incredible endurance makes you tanky as hell, super strength i cant say, but super speed is really nice.
Incredible Might is really good. The best option seems to be to share it with your companions, even with a strength MC build. At mythic rank 8 it's +4 untyped to hit and damage.
Bard, Skald, Magus and Blood rager collectively get very little from Azata.

All Skilled is not very useful. By the time you can get all skilled you're already through the hardest part of the game and you very well should have every proficency you need.

Marvelous Endurance is bad because Fast Healing is bad. It's a generic pathfinder problem. Incoming damage is *so high* that either you go down in 1-3 rounds, or the enemies can only hit you on a 20 or a 19-20, and in both cases fast healing doesn't do much. (if you're dying quickly it doesn't have time to do anything, if you're only getting hit on 19s and 20s you don't need it to do anything.)

Incredible Might isn't untyped, it's Morale. At mythic Rank 8 if you share it with your party you're replicating the effect of Heroic Invocation. So that's basically worthless. It's far better to keep it to your MC. Where it's stronger than Heroic Invocation, but for the majority of the game not enough stronger to like, actually be a big deal. (Especially given how you can get reliable access to heroic invocation super early by merging spellbooks.)

Supersonic Speed is also bad, just cast haste and blur. If the enemy has trueseeing, dispell it, you want to dispell their buffs if you can anyways.
Princess Pilfer eredeti hozzászólása:
Bard, Skald, Magus and Blood rager collectively get very little from Azata.

All Skilled is not very useful. By the time you can get all skilled you're already through the hardest part of the game and you very well should have every proficency you need.
FWIW All-skilled was being applied (rolling twice and taking the better result) to my Will saves to resist Shamira's attempts to read my character's mind. I presume that's a bug.

Princess Pilfer eredeti hozzászólása:
Incredible Might isn't untyped, it's Morale. At mythic Rank 8 if you share it with your party you're replicating the effect of Heroic Invocation. So that's basically worthless. It's far better to keep it to your MC. Where it's stronger than Heroic Invocation, but for the majority of the game not enough stronger to like, actually be a big deal. (Especially given how you can get reliable access to heroic invocation super early by merging spellbooks.)

The description for sharing Incredible Might with your companions is written using the same language that Paizo uses for untyped bonuses; however, on checking, it's applied in-game as a morale bonus.

By the way, the Azata spell Believe in Yourself is very good. I've used it to boost Guarded Hearth (by increasing Sosiel's Wisdom) and Mark of Justice (by increasing Seela's Charisma). My Divine Hound mercenary was getting a total of +6 to hit from it in boss fights (also boosting Dex to hit).
Azata has good support spells, it's true. But so does everybody else.
I'll also note that All-Skilled makes it easier to combine the two halves of the Lexicon of Paradox (my Bard couldn't fail the skill checks).
Legutóbb szerkesztette: gmwaddington; 2022. márc. 16., 17:31
MjKorz eredeti hozzászólása:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778176382

What? He isn't going to pass that save regardless of favourable magic, as 41+20 < 64 ...
Babbles eredeti hozzászólása:
MjKorz eredeti hozzászólása:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778176382

What? He isn't going to pass that save regardless of favourable magic, as 41+20 < 64 ...
Because it's a min-maxed build overperforming in the endgame. You get Favorable Magic at the start of Chapter 3 and it's extremely useful throughout the entirety of chapter 3 and 4 where you need to beat the bloated saves of Playful Darkness and 50 Will Nocticula Palace Guard Balors that are immune to Mind Fog.

Look at this example:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2780205006

Without Mind Fog, Playful Darkness has a Will save of +38 and my Overwhelming Grief DC is 52.

Probability of me landing Overwhelming Grief on Playful Darkness without Favorable Magic is: p = 1-7/20 = 0.65.

Probability of me landing Overwhelming Grief on Playful Darkness with Favorable Magic is: p = 0.35*0.65 + 0.65 = 0.8775

That's a 1.35 success rate multiplier. Of course, in this particular case I have lured Playful Darkness into a bunch of precast Mind Fogs that crushed its Will save via many p = 0.7 success rate Will checks, but had I not done that and instead decided to tackle Playful Darkness head on, Favorable Magic would have made a huge difference.

And of course, I have other debuffs that increase my success rate, but you need to remember that those debuffs take actions (= time) to apply and you always want to have an economy of actions and disable enemies as quickly as possible by using the absolute minimum of actions:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2779053864

So yes, even on min-maxed DC caster builds, Favorable Magic noticeably increases the success rate of beating the saves of toughest bosses by a significant amount.

Also, keep in mind that this is an Enchanter build and Enchantment magic gets the biggest DC boost from items. Favorable Magic is even more valuable on a caster specializing in any other school such as Illusion or Evocation, because it introduces a success rate multiplier of 1.05-1.95 that scales with your initial success rate: you get a multiplier of 1.05 for a 0.95 success rate and a multiplier of 1.95 for a 0.05 success rate. Compared to Enchantment, other schools will have lower initial success rates of beating enemy saves and will benefit from a higher Favorable magic success rate multiplier.

TL;DR: Favorable Magic = less debuffs needed = economy of actions = efficiency = less opportunities to fail.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: MjKorz; 2022. márc. 16., 22:11
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1630/30 megjegyzés mutatása
Laponként: 1530 50

Közzétéve: 2022. márc. 12., 21:47
Hozzászólások: 30