A question about the Trickster rank 2 stealth trick

[PirateMouse]

So according to what I've read, a Trickster's rank 2 stealth trick is "more akin to a Greater Invisibility effect." But exactly how "akin" is it? Does it fail against See Invisible the way Greater Invisibility would? And what about True Sight/True Seeing? Do enemies with that still need to make a Perception check, or do they just ignore your stealth entirely?

It looks like the kind of ability that MIGHT be amazing or might be, at best, only "so so" ... all depending.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

So according to what I've read, a Trickster's rank 2 stealth trick is "more akin to a Greater Invisibility effect." But exactly how "akin" is it? Does it fail against See Invisible the way Greater Invisibility would? And what about True Sight/True Seeing? Do enemies with that still need to make a Perception check, or do they just ignore your stealth entirely?

It looks like the kind of ability that MIGHT be amazing or might be, at best, only "so so" ... all depending.

I've heard different things. Likewise curious about Almost Greater Invis spell.

[PirateMouse]

Yeah, and it's weird that no one seems to know the answer, as it's kind of a huge deal given how much true sight/true seeing there apparently is in the game. We're talking about the difference between a "meh" trick and an "omg that's amazing!" trick, all hinging on this one question.

[PirateMouse]

Really? No one knows?

I have a little difficulty believing that, but it looks like I'll have to be the pioneer who is apparently the first person to ever learn and confirm how Trickster stealth rank 2 actually works ... I guess.

[Maay]

I'm curious too, let this topic stay top. Someone should be the first.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Maay:

I'm curious too, let this topic stay top. Someone should be the first.

I will be starting a stealthy Trickster tonight. I'll report as soon as I know!

[Asha]

I picked up the stealth tricks recently.
Stealth 2 seems to be allright. You can enter stealth via a new ability, not the standard stealth button. It does not slow you down, you can move at full speed and it does not fall off in combat.
I had full concealment (50% miss), rerolled by enemyies with blind fight and ignored by some. (true sight i suppose)
It does not give +20 stealth tho as greater invisibilty wich makes sense :)
I'm not sure, but i think enemies weren't flat fooded to me, probably becasue they had higher perception (unfair diff). Also i play a kineticist so i do very little meele.

Stealth rank 3 is currently garbage tho, it gave me SR10, probably ranks in stealth - 10 instead total stealth bonus - 10.

[Dixon Sider]

Almost greater invisibility gives you a 5% chance to drop the invisibility every time you attack, and it raises by 5% each time you attack. I dont really use it because my wizard has 10 casts of greater invisibility and there's really nothing else to put in that slot. It could be good if you want to use it on a caster without the more spell slot mythic.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Asha:

I'm not sure, but i think enemies weren't flat fooded to me, probably becasue they had higher perception (unfair diff). Also i play a kineticist so i do very little meele.

So if I'm reading this right, you're not really sure if you were seen because of inferior stealth or because of true sight/true seeing?

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

Originally posted by Asha:

I'm not sure, but i think enemies weren't flat fooded to me, probably becasue they had higher perception (unfair diff). Also i play a kineticist so i do very little meele.

So if I'm reading this right, you're not really sure if you were seen because of inferior stealth or because of true sight/true seeing?

with these type of invisibility spells, you should be flat footing them even if they "see" you since being seen does not remove the spell. They should be flat footed even though they "see" you unless they have certain buffs like true seeing.

[Asha]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

So if I'm reading this right, you're not really sure if you were seen because of inferior stealth or because of true sight/true seeing?

Yes, i'm not sure, i did not test that thoroughly.
I think its the same as with greater invisibility, enemies are not always flatfooded aginst that either.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

with these type of invisibility spells, you should be flat footing them even if they "see" you since being seen does not remove the spell. They should be flat footed even though they "see" you unless they have certain buffs like true seeing.

That's actually my point, though: stealth isn't an invisibility spell to begin with. It's stealth, which is entirely distinct from invisibility spells and follows different rules. For example, See Invisible sees right through invisibility, but you still have to win a contested Perception vs. Stealth check to see someone using stealth even if you have See Invisibility on you.

So the question is whether abilities that allow enemies to see through invisibility, which is NOT stealth, also allow them to see through rank 2 Trickster stealth, which IS stealth ... maybe. It's an important distinction because if rank 2 Trickster stealth is ACTUALLY stealth, then it's strictly superior to a permanent Greater Invisibility effect as long as you can win the contested Stealth vs. Perception checks. If it's really just Greater Invisibility without a duration, then it's just ... not very good, really.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

with these type of invisibility spells, you should be flat footing them even if they "see" you since being seen does not remove the spell. They should be flat footed even though they "see" you unless they have certain buffs like true seeing.

That's actually my point, though: stealth isn't an invisibility spell to begin with. It's stealth, which is entirely distinct from invisibility spells.

So the question is whether abilities that allow enemies to see through invisibility, which is NOT stealth, also allow them to see through rank 2 Trickster stealth, which IS stealth ... maybe.

True seeing "sees invisible creatures normally" and that is still what Almost Greater Invisibility makes your character. Some invisibility spells give your character conditions for the spell to end. I think Greater Invisibility is the only spell that has no condition to end. Almost Greater Invisibility does not go away when you are spotted.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

If it's really just Greater Invisibility without a duration, then it's just ... not very good, really.

That is good though because you can get sneak attacks and hit flat footed AC very often. I am hitting flat footed touch AC with my main character all the time and she is incredibly accurate with her ray spells. Not everything is going to have true seeing, just like not everything is immune to dominate. The trick is to find the spell(s) that make the encounter a cake walk.

Greater Invisibility is very often the difference between cake walk and bashing your head against a wall. Even in chapter 4 on Unfair.

Is it better than the other options though, that is debatable. You can just use the almost greater invisibility spell if you do not have a mage with a bunch of greater invisibility casts. I do not imagine ever taking the stealth mythic rank two myself.

[PirateMouse]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

True seeing "sees invisible creatures normally" and that is still what Almost Greater Invisibility makes your character. Some invisibility spells give your character conditions for the spell to end. I think Greater Invisibility is the only spell that has no condition to end. Almost Greater Invisibility does not go away when you are spotted.

You ... I ...

I am not talking about Almost Greater Invisibility. I am not talking about Greater Invisibility. I am not talking about Lesser Invisibility. I am not talking about Pretty Good Invisibility I Guess I've Seen Better But This Will Do I Suppose.

I am talking about the rank 2 Trickster stealth trick. Just that.

The thing I am wondering is how it DIFFERS from Greater Invisibility—which is to say, does it ignore abilities that see through invisibility because it's stealth instead of invisibility? That's what I am wondering.

[Asha]

Originally posted by KittyHat:

I am talking about the rank 2 Trickster stealth trick. Just that.

The thing I am wondering is how it DIFFERS from Greater Invisibility—which is to say, does it ignore abilities that see through invisibility because it's stealth instead of invisibility? That's what I am wondering.

Looks like it does not:

Vrolikai with true seeing: Not flatfooded, no concealment on retaliation.
Vrolikai after true seeing dispelled: flatfooded, concealment on retalation
Babau eliminator with see invisibilty: Not flatfooded, no concealment on retaliation.
Babau eliminator after dispell: flatfooded, concealment on retaliation.

My stealth was 55, Babau perception 27.