The Game offers too many RP options that hurt you gameplay wise

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Ok this is a serious gripe about the game that is VERY annoying; I think there are way too many RP choices that will cause delibrately shoot themselves in the foot from a gameplay standpoint. Let me lay out examples.
First off we have the Legend Path by far the worst mythic path in the game as it A offers something mods already allow you to do and B basically comes in when you've already committed to an existing mythic path and basically robs you of all the benifits and efforts you gained. In what reality would someone like me who likes to RP but ultimately lets gameplay decide my actions take that path especially when its basically a request from the inept deity Iomedae whose followers have basically been in a hundred year stalemate with the demons and are lawfully stupid in that they'll make extremely dumb decisions because they think its the good thing to do.
Secondly I have companions; Wendaug and Camellia are some of the strongest companions in the game, Camellia is the best tank in the game bar none and is a very good caster to boot which makes a very versitile companion but her background makes her not a choice for goody-goody two-shoes players whom will kill her shooting themselves in the foot, and then we have Wendaug whom is better then Lann in every way apart from ethics statwise she is a versitile character you can build however you want, she will always be a better archer then Lann due to Fighter Archers being better Zen Archers and she isn't a Monk (I hate Monks) so that's a bonus too. My biggest gripe however is ethics will make you choose a choice that will if your a roleplay to any alignment to an extreme player shoot yourself in the foot by getting rid of both Wendu and Cam.
Anyway I think the game offers too many ways to shoot yourself in the foot I love this game but I'd like it a LOT more if there weren't so many incentives to shoot yourself in the foot from a gameplay standpoint and before you say use mercenaries, too expensive when they matter most and by late game they aren't worth it because you'll have already invested way too much gear and training into your companions.

[Gigabyte]

I mean you could just make the choice and live with the consequences? I actually liked having these choices, it adds a reason to replay and realism to the world, it makes sense youd have these kinds of people trying to wiggle there way close to the PC who is actively making there party stronger beyond whats normal. Legend path has plenty of RP reasons to go, and saying oh yes but you could mod it into the game, while true doesnt mean much as not everyone wants to mod the game or will be able to mod the game... Companion classes to me is such a nonissue, If i need something in the party that a companion cant give me I MAKE A MERCENARY. Camila may be the best tank companion, but next to a merc who you can go as crazy as you want class and stats wise it means nothing as well as you have plenty of other ways to get access to companions capable of tanking. Regill is a perfect example of a character who kinda always ends up filling a tank roll because he can.

[Applied Mediocrity]

That's a new one. Pray tell, what would be better RP choices in your opinion? Equally weighted options that will never make you make hard decisions? Ones that will have you always win, never lose in some way?

I don't see a problem with RP here. It's actually a refreshing change from the usual way that evil paths are not gimped as much. For example, as CG I tolerated Camelia for too long, because I convinced myself there's some greater good. I was pleasantly surprised that there was not - I made a moral gamble and it didn't pay off, making my own character flawed and guilt-stricken instead of making MarySue right calls all along.

***

On a related note, I really want to write a massive scathing rant about the state of people just writing whatever they don't like that comes to their mind these days. This is bad, that is bad, everybody knows better, but nobody ever does it for some strange reason. But fortunately, I can't be arsed.

[provokastoras]

Camelia is not so good at tanking unless you sacrifce her spellcasting, she is chaotic so she cannot dip to monk (without toybox) her only option is to go as barbarian instictual warrior, but she then won;t be able to use a shield, I guess you can still splash her in alchemist and sorcerer or magus to give her armor and shield spells so then she will be semi valid as tank, not great.... but I did manage in hard with her summoning skeletons to tank for me.
Not so sure wenduag is better than lann in archery or arue in that department. aspect of the falcon and several other of ranger spells more than make up for the damage difference of a couple of specialization feats. lann also gets 2 extra attacks compared to wendy. ki arrows also allwo him to use monk weapon stats for his bow. All three are pretty good archers unless you know what you are doing multiclassing wont make them better.
Camelian is not your best tank lann is giving him crane stance, then a witch level and some sorcerer level then some w/e level and he leaves camelia to dust in tanking at least.
I found legend stronger than angel by leaps and bounds..... but maybe thats just me I don't play with mods though.

[Quacksalber]

Wendu is the only character I've ever built following a guide who is actually super strong as a result. Every other time I've done this they've been as bad as or worse then when I fumbled them myself. I actually have both her and Cam on my current playthrough as I started off demon and then switched to GD.

[Varitus]

I see your point tbh since after beating the game on evil side I will never even touch good side because of how juicy evil side is, but there is always alternative for characters. Plus wasn't the whole point of all the store page descriptions of the game and overall vibe of the game that u really need to make tough decisions to win this crusade? So game delivers. If anything - I'm hoping devs wouldn't drop the bar in expansions. I'd say in terms of RP - this game is borderline perfect dnd game ever made imo. This and NwN1. I'm yet to find a modern dnd game which will make me once again lean into monitor and consume all the epic stuff happening there. Heck, bring us more rp devs :D Deviate from the book and add some choices on your own!

[Hailspork]

Yes, part of roleplaying is making decisions based on what your character would do rather than the optimal choice. It's always been that way with rpg's.
Also, are you really ranking Legend based on the available cheats???

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by Hailspork:

Yes, part of roleplaying is making decisions based on what your character would do rather than the optimal choice. It's always been that way with rpg's.
Also, are you really ranking Legend based on the available cheats???

Yes: especially considering that I'll use those in a heartbeat then take a path that is VERY lackluster otherwise I'll sooner keep Aivu and my OP Azata buffs over going to a weak mythic path because Iomadae demands it just because she wants you not to become a deity that would be more powerful then her

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Ok this is a serious gripe about the game that is VERY annoying; I think there are way too many RP choices that will cause delibrately shoot themselves in the foot from a gameplay standpoint.

I disagree with the core statement the start threads with, as well as with the examples. While it is easy to say "too many choices of this and that hurts the gameplay", the issue starts by the definition of gameplay. Since I consider the manifold choices as essential part of the gameplay, I would rather like more, more complex choices with a stronger and more lasting impact.

By the end of the day it is up to you how you role play the game. It is a digital game with limitations, that for sure. But it is not that more makes it worse. That is a personal view I can accept, but not agree on.

Some may dislike the writing of the game ~ I loved it. But then I noticed all too often how different my line of thoughts are in regards of me playing the game. That is okay. If you dislike it, I would like to know how you would make it different so it is okay for you and me.

[GunStarX]

I don't agree with the criticism that since you can use mods legend is weak. If you want to make the game so easy that you are taking a full mythic path and levels past 20 that's on you not the game design. Legend is extremely powerful compared to a lot of mythic builds. There's a lot to criticize about how legend is implemented story wise, but not power imo.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Camellia is the best tank in the game bar none and is a very good caster to boot which makes a very versitile companion but her background makes her not a choice for goody-goody two-shoes players whom will kill her shooting themselves in the foot, and then we have Wendaug whom is better then Lann in every way apart from ethics statwise she is a versitile character you can build however you want, she will always be a better archer then Lann due to Fighter Archers being better Zen Archers

I have two observations about that:

a) Neither Wengaug nor Camellia could be described as in any way indispensable or stronger than the other companions in the game. I've never played with Wendaug but yes, Camellia is a good tank++. However, no, she is not indispensable by any means. In fact all the companions are of roughly equal strength if they are built right for the tasks you want them to perform.

b) What would you say if you were roleplaying an evil character and Wendaug and Camellia were in fact goodie-two-shoes characters? Would you be throwing a tantrum about how the game is messing up your roleplpaying 'cos all the companions you like are lilly-livered goodie-two-shoes?

What do you expect the game to do, just have wall-to-wall goodie-two-shoes companions? Or have two versions of each character written for the game, each with their own seperate dialogs/quests etc, and activate the one most closely resembling your MC's alignment. What about if you decided to play a true neutral and it was a dead heat, what would you expect the game to do then?

[Wormlore]

I disagree with the OP's assessment of Legend. It's a pretty strong path.
Unless you cheat to give other paths the same benefits. Bad reasoning in my opinion. If you cheat, you break the balance of the game, so of course you break the value of certain choices.

Now, I do agree about the problem with alignment choices. Some choices go counter to character: not killing can be done with very evil intent. Perhaps I want to encourage Ember to spread "kindness" because I consider it makes my subjects easier to manipulate. Maybe I'm recruiting criminals in the army because I believe in giving them a chance at redemption.
Choices are very black and white and I understand that the "video game GM" is not as flexible as a human one. But sometimes, it seems like they are very simplistic applications of dumb stereotypes.
The most obvious issue is how "lying" is purely Chaotic and "telling the truth" is just Lawful. It's completely negating why you're doing it. Just a black & white morality where a lie is chaotic and the truth is lawful. You can't use the truth to unsettle people, with the goal of raising chaos, without taking a step towards Lawful. For example, the very first lie/truth choice in the game is based on someone lying to the player into believing that hiding the angel's sword is a Good action. So you're given a law/chaos choice that mirrors truth/lie choice, completely negating the reason you're given the choice to begin with. There is even a line that could avoid telling a lie while still going with hiding the sword, but the devs decided that this was a throwaway line with absolutely zero effect. (You are still forced back into the law/chaos choice.) You can't be "evil" by deciding to show the sword in order to manipulate the Neathers. You can't be "good" by deciding not to involve them into the problems on the surface. Telling the truth can be done with evil - and sometimes even chaotic - intent. Instead, you always tell the truth because it's the lawful thing to do. Or lie because it's the chaotic thing to do. Ugh.

[Hailspork]

Originally posted by Wormlore:

But sometimes, it seems like they are very simplistic applications of dumb stereotypes.

I don't know about you, but this is my experience with human GM's as well. I had one GM that I wouldn't consider playing a paladin because of how different his standard of ethics was from mine.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Ok this is a serious gripe about the game that is VERY annoying; I think there are way too many RP choices that will cause delibrately shoot themselves in the foot from a gameplay standpoint. Let me lay out examples.
First off we have the Legend Path by far the worst mythic path in the game as it A offers something mods already allow you to do and B basically comes in when you've already committed to an existing mythic path and basically robs you of all the benifits and efforts you gained. In what reality would someone like me who likes to RP but ultimately lets gameplay decide my actions take that path especially when its basically a request from the inept deity Iomedae whose followers have basically been in a hundred year stalemate with the demons and are lawfully stupid in that they'll make extremely dumb decisions because they think its the good thing to do.
Secondly I have companions; Wendaug and Camellia are some of the strongest companions in the game, Camellia is the best tank in the game bar none and is a very good caster to boot which makes a very versitile companion but her background makes her not a choice for goody-goody two-shoes players whom will kill her shooting themselves in the foot, and then we have Wendaug whom is better then Lann in every way apart from ethics statwise she is a versitile character you can build however you want, she will always be a better archer then Lann due to Fighter Archers being better Zen Archers and she isn't a Monk (I hate Monks) so that's a bonus too. My biggest gripe however is ethics will make you choose a choice that will if your a roleplay to any alignment to an extreme player shoot yourself in the foot by getting rid of both Wendu and Cam.
Anyway I think the game offers too many ways to shoot yourself in the foot I love this game but I'd like it a LOT more if there weren't so many incentives to shoot yourself in the foot from a gameplay standpoint and before you say use mercenaries, too expensive when they matter most and by late game they aren't worth it because you'll have already invested way too much gear and training into your companions.

Legend isn't the worst path.

And it's too early for mods in any case.

[ExcaliburV]

Originally posted by Wormlore:

I disagree with the OP's assessment of Legend. It's a pretty strong path.
Unless you cheat to give other paths the same benefits. Bad reasoning in my opinion. If you cheat, you break the balance of the game, so of course you break the value of certain choices.

I agree, it's pretty absurd logic. "Legend sucks because I can cheat to have the benefits of legend anyways."

Well, I can cheat a sword into Skyrim that does 1000000000 damage per swipe, I guess that means magic sucks.

Seriously, what?

And as a note, if you seriously take things from an RP point of view, you will happily shoot yourself in the foot if it means staying true to your character and giving yourself a unique experience. One of my characters ended up losing about 6 or 7 companions due to his choices. I had to make an archer mercenary because I had lost every single archer character in the game.

And that was my favorite playthrough, because I stayed true to my character and know that I had an experience that most people won't. For a roleplayer, that, is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, awesome.

[Peelsepuuppi]

I stopped reading at "Legend is bad because the mods allow you to do the same"

Jesus Christ what an argument...