Dazzling Display + Shatter defences alternatives

[mudakonn]

Wanted to ask about it - i read almost everywhere that you NEED to take them to all melee chars.

The idea is to catch opps flat footed but there are many other ways to set enemies flat footed and not rely on fear effects - and many many mobs are immune to fear.

Seelah is so feat starved that i feel sad to select two feats for only this effect, low CHA chars have dazzling display wasted and rogue chars have their 2WF feats compeating with DD+SD

Why blow two feats on multiple characters - instead you can use spellcasters to create flat footed statuses. Glitterdust sets flat footed, a lvl 2 spell, sound blast lvl 2 cleric spell sets it, slumber hex. Of course this demands specialization from your spellcasters.

And there is Archon aura - needs to be on mobile high initiative char what is not easy to set up of course

[ExcaliburV]

You're not wrong, there's plenty of options. Glitterdust, Blindness, and whatever other spells. Magus can get prescient attack to make enemies flat-footed. Greater Invisibility might not work all the time, but it's still a decent option.

I wouldn't be surprised if DD+SD is just the easiest or most consistent method, but personally I've never made a single character with those feats and I've gotten by ok. It's probably more mandatory on unfair, and maybe that's where those build guides are coming from, but for anything less, you can do without it.

[Conquista]

its the easiest method, like if someone asked how he can increase his hit chance, chances are it is easier for them to add two more feats instead of building a whole character a certain way, even more if you consider that with certain choices, you can't recruit mercenarys or respec anymore unless you have mods

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by Conquista:

its the easiest method, like if someone asked how he can increase his hit chance, chances are it is easier for them to add two more feats instead of building a whole character a certain way, even more if you consider that with certain choices, you can't recruit mercenarys or respec anymore unless you have mods

Thanks - i guess this must be the case. No set up, just spam it on multiple chars and one of them gets its through.

[psionyx]

Originally posted by mudakonn:

Wanted to ask about it - i read almost everywhere that you NEED to take them to all melee chars.

The idea is to catch opps flat footed but there are many other ways to set enemies flat footed and not rely on fear effects - and many many mobs are immune to fear.

Seelah is so feat starved that i feel sad to select two feats for only this effect, low CHA chars have dazzling display wasted and rogue chars have their 2WF feats compeating with DD+SD

Why blow two feats on multiple characters - instead you can use spellcasters to create flat footed statuses. Glitterdust sets flat footed, a lvl 2 spell, sound blast lvl 2 cleric spell sets it, slumber hex. Of course this demands specialization from your spellcasters.

And there is Archon aura - needs to be on mobile high initiative char what is not easy to set up of course

Well from my own experience running 2 different melee characters with that feat combo, vs spells like glitterdust and similar, the difference I'VE seen, is that Dazzling Display successfully triggers WAY more often than spells do. If you are using a character with decent CHA (and if you're using Seelah then she's got a decent one), and you make a point to keep their Persuasion skill up, it almost always succeeds....on like, EVERY target in range. I'd say, in mass DD uses, 80-85% of targets are consistently hit with every usage. Whereas I've lost count of how many times my spells have failed to even get through spell resistance, and THEN get through their saving throw, to actually do anything. Even with things like Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, etc.

You can find some items that help with your Persuasion checks very early on, making it almost a guaranteed thing. And if you are using Regill, and he's got the Hellknight feat that also makes him trigger Fear status in any enemies who are Shaken, he can scatter hordes with a single glare of his surly visage.

I don't agree with the idea of "ALL of your melees must have it", but having at least 1 with it, is a dang fine plan in my opinion. Especially if you trigger the fear effect, and have someone with a reach weapon and Combat Expertise. As they run away, you get lots of free shots at the enemy.

Bottom line, the amount of insane specialization and feats you have to devote to keep a spell caster's ability to be relevant with crowd control spells like Glitterdust, seems WAY more resource intensive than 2 feats, class skill of Persuasion, and a decent CHA with a +CHA helmet.

[amills1]

Well, it is a bit more complicated that that. Shatter defences only works if the target is shaken, frightened or panicked which you need to set up. You can pull this off with certain feats but they require you to hit or kill an opponent first - which isn't so easy if you are facing a single, high AC opponent. The more reliable methods involve high level spells or a bard ability - the two of which don't allow a save at all.

Glitterdust, on the other hand, does allow a will save which could be a problem against enemies with high will saves.

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by amills1:

Well, it is a bit more complicated that that. Shatter defences only works if the target is shaken, frightened or panicked which you need to set up. You can pull this off with certain feats but they require you to hit or kill an opponent first - which isn't so easy if you are facing a single, high AC opponent. The more reliable methods involve high level spells or a bard ability - the two of which don't allow a save at all.

Glitterdust, on the other hand, does allow a will save which could be a problem against enemies with high will saves.

Spell approach could be more viabale if your MC is high CHA caster - getting it 28-30 is possible quite early and then DC checks run about 26-28 on lvl 10. Really dont see any bard discussion at all here, we are talking about Dirge Bard i guess?

[Mravenrocks]

We use Shatter Defences because there are ways to inflict shaken on 100% of the enemies in the game even on Unfair.

NO mob in the game, none, is immune to the Bard ability Dirge of Doom since you will make even demons that are immune to mind affecting abilities shaken with that.
Also Frightful Aspect can make 95% of enemies in the game shaken. I've beaten this game on Unfair twice and Shatter Defences has helped my melee characters hit most enemies.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by mudakonn:

Seelah is so feat starved that i feel sad to select two feats for only this effect, low CHA chars have dazzling display wasted and rogue chars have their 2WF feats compeating with DD+SD

Why blow two feats on multiple characters - instead you can use spellcasters to create flat footed statuses. Glitterdust sets flat footed, a lvl 2 spell, sound blast lvl 2 cleric spell sets it, slumber hex. Of course this demands specialization from your spellcasters.

I think you are misunderstanding the reasoning behind the builds you're looking at. You would hardly ever actually use DD, it is simply a prerequisite for shatter so you can't avoid taking it.

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by Mravenrocks:

We use Shatter Defences because there are ways to inflict shaken on 100% of the enemies in the game even on Unfair.

NO mob in the game, none, is immune to the Bard ability Dirge of Doom since you will make even demons that are immune to mind affecting abilities shaken with that.
Also Frightful Aspect can make 95% of enemies in the game shaken. I've beaten this game on Unfair twice and Shatter Defences has helped my melee characters hit most enemies.

Thanks - a good pointer for my future unfair run then:)

[amills1]

Originally posted by psionyx:

Originally posted by mudakonn:

Wanted to ask about it - i read almost everywhere that you NEED to take them to all melee chars.

The idea is to catch opps flat footed but there are many other ways to set enemies flat footed and not rely on fear effects - and many many mobs are immune to fear.

Seelah is so feat starved that i feel sad to select two feats for only this effect, low CHA chars have dazzling display wasted and rogue chars have their 2WF feats compeating with DD+SD

Why blow two feats on multiple characters - instead you can use spellcasters to create flat footed statuses. Glitterdust sets flat footed, a lvl 2 spell, sound blast lvl 2 cleric spell sets it, slumber hex. Of course this demands specialization from your spellcasters.

And there is Archon aura - needs to be on mobile high initiative char what is not easy to set up of course

I've lost count of how many times my spells have failed to even get through spell resistance, and THEN get through their saving throw, to actually do anything. Even with things like Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, etc.

That's probably a bug then, glitterdust isn't supposed to allow spell resistance.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by mudakonn:

Wanted to ask about it - i read almost everywhere that you NEED to take them to all melee chars.

The idea is to catch opps flat footed but there are many other ways to set enemies flat footed and not rely on fear effects - and many many mobs are immune to fear.

Seelah is so feat starved that i feel sad to select two feats for only this effect, low CHA chars have dazzling display wasted and rogue chars have their 2WF feats compeating with DD+SD

Why blow two feats on multiple characters - instead you can use spellcasters to create flat footed statuses. Glitterdust sets flat footed, a lvl 2 spell, sound blast lvl 2 cleric spell sets it, slumber hex. Of course this demands specialization from your spellcasters.

And there is Archon aura - needs to be on mobile high initiative char what is not easy to set up of course

You're right it's not for everyone and Seelah especially has ways to make up for it. The higher the difficulty the better it is though since Intimidation is either a skill check (so doesn't care about saves or resists) or in some cases automatically applied. There are a LOT of ways to boost skill checks (many more than boosting DCs) so easier to get there.

And you don't have to use Dazzling to apply Shaken since most of the foes you really need it against are just single targets you can just use Demoralize.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Originally posted by mudakonn:

Seelah is so feat starved that i feel sad to select two feats for only this effect, low CHA chars have dazzling display wasted and rogue chars have their 2WF feats compeating with DD+SD

Why blow two feats on multiple characters - instead you can use spellcasters to create flat footed statuses. Glitterdust sets flat footed, a lvl 2 spell, sound blast lvl 2 cleric spell sets it, slumber hex. Of course this demands specialization from your spellcasters.

I think you are misunderstanding the reasoning behind the builds you're looking at. You would hardly ever actually use DD, it is simply a prerequisite for shatter so you can't avoid taking it.

You can turn Regill into a Vavakia Vanguard with Mythic Dazzling + Fearsomeness. It's sometimes a pain to apply but worth having a character to who can reliably Dazzle to soften up a map then against bosses can just use the easier Demoralize. Dirge isn't great because you have to turn off Courage to use it (and you don't even get a Bard companion) so better to use all the tools at your disposal, and there are a lot (seashell, etc) to get there without autoshaken effects until Frightful comes online.