Vescavor Swarms on unfair

[atm]

Looking for tips on how to handle these guys at L7. I did manage to get past the hump on my previous unfair playthrough, but finding them even worse of a pain on this one. Most swarms are easy in turn based (just take your 5-foot step each turn and they can never hit you), but not vescavor since you will miss your turns so often, either to do nothing or hit yourself.

Things I have tried, would do, or can't do:

-Liberation domain should (?) protect against the confusion effect from gibber, but I am 4k from L8 and have cleared literally everything else up to this point, so cannot get 4k xp without going through the lepers smile vescavors. As L7 my liberation domain user doesn't have the confusion suppression aura yet. I have community on her as well, but likewise she doesn't have guarded hearth until L8, which would make a big difference.

-Buffed as high as I can with dex, wis, haste, divine favor (I mean the L1 spell not hte L4 one), strength, bard song, and a few other things.

-My party has varying levels of will saves, from my inquisitor at +17 to my alchemist at like +8. My inquisitor can save pretty well against the gibber - but she's an archer, so is otherwise useless against them. (Edit: she CAN take them somewhat using bane weapon, but she uses up all her rounds of it before the end of the encounter, and I really do want to have something left to use on the queen). My grenadier and fire kineticist should be brilliant in theory, but spend the whole time gibbered. My grenadier should eat these guys, but he is lucky to get one bomb off every three rounds or so, and has like a 50% miss chance, partly due to their innate concealment.

-Tried variations of turn based and real time. Both have the same problem - within about 1 round, everyone is gibbered, and either attacking themselves, each other, or just standing there. All of those problems allow the swarms to deal their full damage, about 30 damage per tick, so someone is going down within a round or two. If I try and kite in real time, no matter who I use they are eventually gibbered and just stand there and die.

-Can't pull at range, as the encounter I have hit a wall on appears(?) pre-scripted, with three swarms appearing in a canyon. Edit: And once you kill those 3, another 2 spawn on you. And when you kill those, another 2 spawn. Not sure if it is a bug or if that's just how it is.

-Can't (?) rest and just burn everything on a single pull, as I have to get to the vescavor queen and have some resources left.

-Do have bludgeoning melee, which isn't too bad, when they can attack. The horse does pretty well actually, doing about 30-40 damage in a round. Sadly, it's just not enough. Now that I think about it, all my melee is bludgeoning, so I am already doing that.

-Tried fireball, but they have evasion or something, and took 0 damage.

I feel like I must be missing something. I can handle 1, possibly 2 swarms, but the guaranteed gibber and fact I can't pull at range is just ending me with 3 scripted swarms. There is a way to defend against pretty much every single status in this game, but I just can't for the life of me figure out how to handle these bugs at this level.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. I can roll back a save to before lepers smile and am willing to try anything.

[アンジェル]

Most good experiences in regards of those I have with fire wall and fireball. And some other lasting area spells. Though I absolutely cannot tell if that helps you since I play in real time mode.

And on early level they are that... evil... It gets better later on.

[atm]

Going to add a few things I have now tried:

-Found that hugely spreading out my party helped a lot, but man, I feel like my fire kineticist got a raw deal here. He managed to fire off like 6 kinetic blasts on one attempt, needing to roll a 7 to hit, and a 5 to penetrate spell res, but because they also have concealment he managed to miss every single one because of either concealment, missed, or didn't penetrate spell resistance. He is functionally useless here, as too much has to go right for him to land a single hit.

-My best attempt, I killed 6 (!!) swarms before they gibbered me to death. I don't remember so many spawning on my previous run, so I wonder if they made it harder or something? The initial pull of 3 triggered a pull of 2 when they died, then another pull of 2 after that, which finished me.

-Tried rolling back save to see if there was a scroll of holy aura or shield of law on the camp vendor. There isn't.

[atm]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Most good experiences in regards of those I have with fire wall and fireball. And some other lasting area spells. Though I absolutely cannot tell if that helps you since I play in real time mode.

And on early level they are that... evil... It gets better later on.

Yeah, they are pretty trivial once you have the tools to deal with them. I imagine shield of law would shut down their gibber and make them just normal annoying bug swarms with spell resistance, but you don't get that until cleric level 13. I technically am running a shaman and an inquisitor in place of a cleric in this party, which is why I am taking liberation domain on the inquisitor, which should give me something I can use against them in about 0.2 levels, IF I can get past this canyon.

[atm]

OK I am just about losing it lol. It's possible my party mix is just never going to be able to do this encounter, but I am stumped as to what classes can actually fight 7 vescavor swarms at this level. Like, what classes should I have actually rolled?

-Possibly more inquisitors, since they seem to have godly will saves. Trouble is they don't seem to have much of the right kind of burst damage against these guys. Meleeing with a decent bludgeoning weapon, I would have 1 attack per round, which would have a fair chance of missing. A full party of mace wielding inquisitors wouldn't get gibbered as hard, but probably couldn't kill them in any acceptable timeframe.

-Maybe a high DC aoe evoker wizard? But I still fail to see how at L7 it would be enough different from my alchemist to be able to kill 7 swarms.

-My kineticist can't use wall, sadly, and even if he could it wouldn't matter since the way they spawn they appear on different ends of the canyon. They also appear to have evasion so take 0 damage on a successful reflex save.

This is just so frustrating, because I know I could do this if I had just a tiny bit more XP. At L8 I would have all the tools I needed to take these guys. Really starting to feel like my run has ended here.

[RandomDude2018]

Unbreakable Heart should work. Level 1 cleric/bard spell.

Just like in Kingmaker i'm running 2 clerics and 1 simple bard (and that is a lot of Unbreakable Heart's) and i had no problems on unfair.

[wendigo211]

The Quartermaster at camp sells the Bookworm's Headband for 15000 GP, it provides immunity to gibber (not Drone, so be careful in the tunnels under Leper's Smile). Unbreakable Heart will suppress the effect, but you have to cast it after your character has been gibbered, otherwise it just provides a save bonus, which is pretty useless against the high DC on unfair.

Apart from that, get one character with gibber protection and expeditious retreat (or haste) to kite the swarms around while your kineticist spams extended range blasts at them. Extended range is long enough that your kineticist will be out of the range of gibber.

Leper's smile is nice and spread out. You can always find a place where you can kite the swarms while keeping them a good distance from your party.

Edit: the best combo is Expeditious Retreat on someone with the Bookworm's Headband who kites the swarms. Expeditious Retreat lasts a minute/level so you should be able to get to the queen on a single cast.

[provokastoras]

Originally posted by atm:

Looking for tips on how to handle these guys at L7. I did manage to get past the hump on my previous unfair playthrough, but finding them even worse of a pain on this one. Most swarms are easy in turn based (just take your 5-foot step each turn and they can never hit you), but not vescavor since you will miss your turns so often, either to do nothing or hit yourself.

Things I have tried, would do, or can't do:

-Liberation domain should (?) protect against the confusion effect from gibber, but I am 4k from L8 and have cleared literally everything else up to this point, so cannot get 4k xp without going through the lepers smile vescavors. As L7 my liberation domain user doesn't have the confusion suppression aura yet. I have community on her as well, but likewise she doesn't have guarded hearth until L8, which would make a big difference.

-Buffed as high as I can with dex, wis, haste, divine favor (I mean the L1 spell not hte L4 one), strength, bard song, and a few other things.

-My party has varying levels of will saves, from my inquisitor at +17 to my alchemist at like +8. My inquisitor can save pretty well against the gibber - but she's an archer, so is otherwise useless against them. (Edit: she CAN take them somewhat using bane weapon, but she uses up all her rounds of it before the end of the encounter, and I really do want to have something left to use on the queen). My grenadier and fire kineticist should be brilliant in theory, but spend the whole time gibbered. My grenadier should eat these guys, but he is lucky to get one bomb off every three rounds or so, and has like a 50% miss chance, partly due to their innate concealment.

-Tried variations of turn based and real time. Both have the same problem - within about 1 round, everyone is gibbered, and either attacking themselves, each other, or just standing there. All of those problems allow the swarms to deal their full damage, about 30 damage per tick, so someone is going down within a round or two. If I try and kite in real time, no matter who I use they are eventually gibbered and just stand there and die.

-Can't pull at range, as the encounter I have hit a wall on appears(?) pre-scripted, with three swarms appearing in a canyon. Edit: And once you kill those 3, another 2 spawn on you. And when you kill those, another 2 spawn. Not sure if it is a bug or if that's just how it is.

-Can't (?) rest and just burn everything on a single pull, as I have to get to the vescavor queen and have some resources left.

-Do have bludgeoning melee, which isn't too bad, when they can attack. The horse does pretty well actually, doing about 30-40 damage in a round. Sadly, it's just not enough. Now that I think about it, all my melee is bludgeoning, so I am already doing that.

-Tried fireball, but they have evasion or something, and took 0 damage.

I feel like I must be missing something. I can handle 1, possibly 2 swarms, but the guaranteed gibber and fact I can't pull at range is just ending me with 3 scripted swarms. There is a way to defend against pretty much every single status in this game, but I just can't for the life of me figure out how to handle these bugs at this level.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. I can roll back a save to before lepers smile and am willing to try anything.

You should not be level 8 there on unfair stop sharing exp with people you don't use.
slow clap for your patience to get there on unfair thats more that mine. In hard I just had my archer kill them on surprise round I know that wont work in unfair though. an alchemist main or an elementalist main along with an archer can probably do away with 1 of the swarms at suprise round.... but those things are just evil in unfair, they probably hit for 30+ hps a round.

[Dixon Sider]

There is a level 7 (i believe?) Scroll that makes you practically immune to the saving throws. There is also an accessory (i think headband?) That makes you immune to mind control. With the right items you can stomp that entire area.

[ajohnemus]

My easiest go of it were 2 sorcs and a fire domain cleric casting fireballs

[Dixon Sider]

Thundercall (Thundercaller Bard) ♥♥♥♥♥ on the swarms too. That is pretty nichey though. It has a pretty good chance of stunning each swarm. I was above 50% stun chance on unfair I believe.

[Babbles]

Originally posted by atm:

Going to add a few things I have now tried:

-My best attempt, I killed 6 (!!) swarms before they gibbered me to death. I don't remember so many spawning on my previous run, so I wonder if they made it harder or something? The initial pull of 3 triggered a pull of 2 when they died, then another pull of 2 after that, which finished me.

That section is optional, there is only 2 encounters you need to pass (and you can ignore dude in the crevice) to beeline the queen.

As Dixon pointed out, the swarms are Vulnerable to sonic (but not ear piercing scream, as they don't have ears :) ) - I had 3 melee with Thunderous Blows, that and beelining the Queen helps.

[atm]

Originally posted by Babbles:

Originally posted by atm:

Going to add a few things I have now tried:

-My best attempt, I killed 6 (!!) swarms before they gibbered me to death. I don't remember so many spawning on my previous run, so I wonder if they made it harder or something? The initial pull of 3 triggered a pull of 2 when they died, then another pull of 2 after that, which finished me.

That section is optional, there is only 2 encounters you need to pass (and you can ignore dude in the crevice) to beeline the queen.

As Dixon pointed out, the swarms are Vulnerable to sonic (but not ear piercing scream, as they don't have ears :) ) - I had 3 melee with Thunderous Blows, that and beelining the Queen helps.

Yeah I realised later that I could take a different route to the queen, although the other route is no picnic either. 3 swarms + a guard, but since you can pull it yourself, you have a better chance and can actually surprise them.
Got to the queen, discovered my team couldn't hit her, so have to roll back and take nenio for greater invisibility. (Was stung by the fact that I had no invisibility so no flat footed attacks, and am not getting it until next level since my main caster is a sorcerer, and my kineticist who could target touch couldn't get through her spell resistance).
For the record, it is not the first time I have done that area on unfair, but finding my party mix, which should be more than fine in 1 level when abilities come online, is just terrible right now for unfair.

[atm]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

The Quartermaster at camp sells the Bookworm's Headband for 15000 GP, it provides immunity to gibber (not Drone, so be careful in the tunnels under Leper's Smile). Unbreakable Heart will suppress the effect, but you have to cast it after your character has been gibbered, otherwise it just provides a save bonus, which is pretty useless against the high DC on unfair.

Apart from that, get one character with gibber protection and expeditious retreat (or haste) to kite the swarms around while your kineticist spams extended range blasts at them. Extended range is long enough that your kineticist will be out of the range of gibber.

Leper's smile is nice and spread out. You can always find a place where you can kite the swarms while keeping them a good distance from your party.

Edit: the best combo is Expeditious Retreat on someone with the Bookworm's Headband who kites the swarms. Expeditious Retreat lasts a minute/level so you should be able to get to the queen on a single cast.

Wow... fantastic advice! I have seen the bookworm's headband but hadn't thought about using it before. Thanks so much dude.

[atm]

Originally posted by provokastoras:

You should not be level 8 there on unfair stop sharing exp with people you don't use.
slow clap for your patience to get there on unfair thats more that mine. In hard I just had my archer kill them on surprise round I know that wont work in unfair though. an alchemist main or an elementalist main along with an archer can probably do away with 1 of the swarms at suprise round.... but those things are just evil in unfair, they probably hit for 30+ hps a round.

Was actually lucky I did share xp (there was no need to not, since I was running a full party most of the game), since I could pull out nenio at L7 and use her invisibility once I discovered I was screwed without it. She would have still been L5 if I had been keeping all the xp to myself.
But yeah, the swarms are horrible in so many ways on unfair at this level. I don't recall having too much trouble with them later on, but right now, the fact that they gibber you into not being able to move out of the way of their 30+ damage per tick is horrible. You feel really helpless lol.

[atm]

Well I finally got it, lol. Took me probably 4 hours of different strategies, but it was worth it. In the end:

Swapped my poor kineticist out for L7 Nenio. Kineticist was constantly missing or failing to penetrate spell resistance, so was dead weight.

Rainbow Pattern from Nenio actually worked ok to knock out the swarms - had about a 50% chance to daze each swarm for 7 rounds, letting you take them out one by one.

Used greater invisibility from Nenio to allow my archer to hit the queen. My archer was quite a boss, she's a sanctified slayer so not only was she hitting flat footed she was sneak attacking. With stacked buffs, she was really only missing to the concealment.

Also used greater invis on my main, who's a pretty underpowered sorcerer (at this level). He was able to deal about 40 damage a round with sense vitals and snowball - the most underappreciated 1st level spell ever. It hits touch, but passes through spell resistance, so he was hitting flat-footed touch with added sneak attack.

I honestly don't know what I would have done without greater invisibility in this area. It was brutal for my party, but I am close to L8 and think I will probably be fine once I get the L8 abilities.

Thanks everybody for the suggestions.