Suggestion Fallen paladin PRC

[provokastoras]

I remember in 3.5 there was this class
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm
I would love to see a similar class in this game maybe in a DLC.
As far as 3.5 go this class is not even broken. (or strong unless you have something very specific in mind, usually i used that instead of alchemist as a splash to get certain features like aura of evil smite and or armour proficiency in some rogue builds. )

[Conquista]

i think all the prestige classes in wotr are based on prestige classes from pnp pathfinder
and in pnp pathfinder there is no blackguard

[Stink Bug]

Pathfinder has a Vindicative Bastard https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/vindictive-bastard-ex-paladin-archetype/

And Anti-Paladin https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/

instead of Blackguard (which might be licensed by Wizards of the Coast). The pathfinder Antipaladin is actually a good bit better and more flavorful than the 3.5 version, IMO. The Kingmaker mod Call of the Wild adds both, if you want to try them in that game.

[provokastoras]

I don't say the class should be named blackguard what I like is the rp aspect of trading paladin levels into the prc. in meta-gaming perspective a fallen paladin without special abilities is like a wizard without spells.... so the players have no choice but to atone the character so it is useful again.
Classes like that from role playing perspective allow you to play the hero that lost his will to be good or to go by the book without being a practical npc on the table.
And to be honest blackguard as it is might actually be too strong for pathfinder. cause it does some shenanigans that pathfinder moved away from. it combines smite with sneak attack. which no normal build in pathfinder should be able to get.... as smite are lawful abilities locked in classes with the lawful description sneak attacks are chaotic abilities locked in classes with the chaotic descriptor. If you do the math vs a smited opponent a blackguard should do double damage in comparison to a rogue.
In all if I was to tweak the class i would either have it focus on smite or sneak so it does not give both. On the other hand blackguard was one of the few classes with heavy armor build in that could get sneak attack and that was its selling point, that and the saves but I don't remember if they get them. The best way to implement it is give it a combat trick list to choose either sneak attack or smite, representing the alignment axis swift towards chaotic neutral / evil or lawful neutral/ evil . getting a combat trick every other level and maybe a couple of signature abilities should make it in par with a fighter.

[Stink Bug]

Sounds like you want a homebrew class. If Owlcat were to do anything regarding special fallen paladin classes, it’d be the official Paizo VB or Antipaladin alternate Paladin classes, and there’s probably too few good enemies throughout the game for them to justify the latter.

You could always take up modding and make it yourself; there’s a good bit of open-source custom archetype mods already you could glean from, especially if you’ve already got C# knowledge. There’s a bunch of links to those and how-to guides and wikis on the Wrath Discord too.

[provokastoras]

I don't mind tbh if its made as antipaldin or an official class I am fine with either as long as you can trade in the levels... of course you can always retrain so problem solved. but then again all your moral choices reset when you retrain.

[Conquista]

trading in levels sounds like a feature that is currently not ingame
so probably had to be more creative if it comes to modding

[Immortal Reaver]

You can get fallen paladin (and not only paladin) as companion in act 4.

[thelebk]

I WOTR you are virtually guaranteed to be a fallen paladin with no benefits as Mythic 8 changes your alignment without warning and atonement will no longer works as it will reset you to the mythic alignment instead of what your character was at level 1.

[ExcaliburV]

Originally posted by thelebk:

I WOTR you are virtually guaranteed to be a fallen paladin with no benefits as Mythic 8 changes your alignment without warning and atonement will no longer works as it will reset you to the mythic alignment instead of what your character was at level 1.

Only if you pick a path that isn't or doesn't allow for LG to begin with, in which case... yes, you did fall.

[ExcaliburV]

Originally posted by provokastoras:

I don't mind tbh if its made as antipaldin or an official class I am fine with either as long as you can trade in the levels... of course you can always retrain so problem solved. but then again all your moral choices reset when you retrain.

It was already mentioned, but there's an archetype for Paladin called Vindictive Bastard in Pathfinder that's basically all about being a fallen paladin. It's not in WOTR, and it's only in Kingmaker with mods. Hopefully they'll add it legit at some point, cause it's a nice option for non-LG paladins. I like the idea of the "Hero fallen from grace" too, so it'd be nice to have the option.

[thelebk]

Originally posted by ExcaliburV:

Originally posted by thelebk:

I WOTR you are virtually guaranteed to be a fallen paladin with no benefits as Mythic 8 changes your alignment without warning and atonement will no longer works as it will reset you to the mythic alignment instead of what your character was at level 1.

Only if you pick a path that isn't or doesn't allow for LG to begin with, in which case... yes, you did fall.

Incorrect. Gold Dragon most certainly allows LG but you immediately fall when you are force switched to NG alignment. Bahamut and all gold dragons are historically LG, but this is irrelevant as rules allow for near alignments to be acceptable in pnp. The way it is enforced in WOTR however is if you pick ANY mythic path other than Angel or Mythic Hero you immediately fall. Meh.

[ExcaliburV]

Originally posted by thelebk:

Incorrect. Gold Dragon most certainly allows LG but you immediately fall when you are force switched to NG alignment. Bahamut and all gold dragons are historically LG, but this is irrelevant as rules allow for near alignments to be acceptable in pnp. The way it is enforced in WOTR however is if you pick ANY mythic path other than Angel or Mythic Hero you immediately fall. Meh.

Because in the choice to either stay on your current path or dismiss your power entirely and become a legend, both of which would have allowed you to stay LG, you instead actively chose to follow the path of pure Neutral Goodness. While it's true that Gold Dragons are traditionally LG, that doesn't change the fact that the path Hal is encouraging you to walk is incredibly, obviously NG. And you accepted becoming the physical embodiment of NG rather than any of the other options you had. Therefore, you fell.

[thelebk]

I do not concur. Gold Dragons are Lawful Good, and the alignment system as implemented means you have to alternate between pure good choices and pure law choices to stay LG. There is not enough interaction with HAL to determine his true alignment and the game does not at any point state that these are not traditional gold dragons. In any case there is no reason why there should be a forced alignment change for a mythic path.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

This is why I'll never play as a Paladin in these games: way too alignment focused and I HATE it

[thelebk]

It was not an issue in PKM. If you strayed an atonement spell would immediately put you back to LG. Atonement does not work as its spell description states in WOTR however.