Counter Spells and Enemy Dispells Where/How?

[psionyx]

So one type of spell caster I like to play in various games, is the countermancer. Someone built primarily around removing enemy effects. Either reactionary casting to negate spells in action, or spells/abilities that let them turn off things like enemy debuffs, or area effects.

I don't seem to see a way to do it in this game though? I've seen a few comments in YT vids, absently referring to counterspell, and I recall seeing either a feat, or mythic ability that augmented it, but I'm not sure how to actually go about doing this?

Is it even a valid build strategy? Because I've got a few casters that are mostly just buff bots, with some enemy debuffing thrown in currently. At later levels they will be more useful, but I'd like to try out someone who is actively casting on the enemy, to remove their stuff, like Dispell, but for enemy spells.

Is it a specific class/archetype that does it? Is it just a single spell that's higher level than I've currently unlocked yet?

Any advice on this, and if it's a good way to build a character? I was thinking of maybe tweaking Ember to do it, as I've currently built her along the Ember the Pacifist route that I found on YT. Which is fun, but lower levels, it's something of a one trick pony. I'd like to give that crazy elf pony a few more active tricks if I can.

[Conquista]

just use dispel magic, greater
its a level 6 abjuration spell
warpriest has a subclass called disenchanter specialized in dispelling, but i'm not sure about the overall value

[Indure]

One, there is no counter spell. Two, there are spells like dispel and greater dispel to remove buffs and AoE effects. Three, and most importantly most enemies don't have buffs that can be dispelled because their "buffs" are intrinsic to their nature so making a character centered around dispelling is not advised.

[mreed2]

Yeah, that's not possible in this game. I'm not even certain that character archetype is possible in P&P -- 3rd edition D&D did does include Counterspell mechanics (which you can find here[www.d20pfsrd.com]), but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent section in the Pathfinder rules.

It wouldn't shock me if these mechanics didn't make the jump to Pathfinder, because they sucked in a big way. You have to give up your action for a round to attempt to counter a specific foes spell. If the targeted foe didn't cast a spell, you did nothing at all for that round. If a different foe cast a spell, you wouldn't try to counterspell that. And then you have to pass a spellcraft check to identify the spell and have memorized the same spell as the foe is trying to cast to counter it. That's... Pretty useless, honestly.

In any case, I can say with 100% certainty that there are no counterspell mechanics in this game.

You can dispel effects once they have been cast, but you cannot block them from being cast in the first place. And even dispelling effects that have taken effect is iffy -- you can't choose which effects you want to dispel, so you are at least as likely to dispel buffs as debuffs. And AOE persistent effects can't be dispelled at all (which is a bug, but nevertheless that's how it works right now).

So... No, you aren't going to be able to play your preferred archetype, sorry.

[mreed2]

Originally posted by Indure:

... Three, and most importantly most enemies don't have buffs that can be dispelled because their "buffs" are intrinsic to their nature so making a character centered around dispelling is not advised.

This isn't 100% true -- some enemies do have buffs that can be dispelled.

But you are correct that most of the effects that you would want to dispel either intrinsic (due to race or class) or aren't created via spells and thus cannot be dispelled. And even when they do have dispellable effects, the DC to dispel tends to be absurd, so you are very, very unlikely to succeed. But hey, you have a good chance at dispelling the effects on your party, so "Wheeee" I guess?

[hilburnashua]

There is a counterspell ability in PnP Pathfinder, but it's just terrible. I don't think in years of playing I have ever seen anyone try to counterspell. I hear the spell/ability in D&D 5th ed is kind of overpowered to the point that PC casters just spend their actions waiting for a spell casting opponent to try to cast then use counter to effectively cancel their turn (kind of like Magic the Gathering).

[droggen]

You can go path of the Aeon and there is items in the game you can wear/use that can dis-spell on single targets as for classes like others have said I don't think there is a specific class made for this objective alone but you can make a character who can do it as you play just not solely focused on it.

As for why path of the aeon I'm pretty sure they get gazes and other abilities like what you're looking for that punish magic casters and can dis-spell magic based on their gaze target.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Conquista:

just use dispel magic, greater
its a level 6 abjuration spell

Good luck with it. Sometimes game have ridiculous caster levels like 30-45 (usually for demons innate abilities).

[psionyx]

Sorry, I tend to use the term Counterspell as a generic term for any actions/spells/etc that specifically function to just remove something else someone else did. It's an artifact from my Mage: the Awakening days I'll admit. xD

So, the general consensus, in this game, in it's current build, is that while technically there are a handful of spells, and an archetype that is designed to do it, the practical mechanics of it just make it nonviable?

Also to further clarify, I wasn't trying to make a PURE countermancer, more having it be sort of a secondary function for one of my mages. So far, I find that depending on the type of fight, they are often not doing anything, because I've built them for support/debuff, and the enemies are already debuffed, or just freaking immune to various debuffs, or have a spell resistance so high it's ridiculous. So I thought I'd add in some potential versatility with dispel magics, assuming the spell resistance/DC isn't also so high as to make it equally pointless.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by Indure:

Three, and most importantly most enemies don't have buffs that can be dispelled because their "buffs" are intrinsic to their nature so making a character centered around dispelling is not advised.

a lot of those are not rule-abiding and should be fixed by the devs, many of those effects, yes even the perm. duration ones, should be dispell-able, also a lot of pre-applied enemy buffs use a ridiculous caster level that makes no sense, making dispelling end-game stuff near impossible

[mreed2]

Originally posted by psionyx:

...
So, the general consensus, in this game, in it's current build, is that while technically there are a handful of spells, and an archetype that is designed to do it, the practical mechanics of it just make it nonviable?...

There is no archetype designed to do what you are asking. There are a (very few) spells that will (attempt) to dispel effects, but that's the entire extent of support for this sort of gameplay. There are no feats that specifically make dispel magic work better, for example, no classes that specifically improve how dispel magic works, and generally no recognizance in the game that someone would want to make a character that specializes in dispelling existing effects.

...Also to further clarify, I wasn't trying to make a PURE countermancer, more having it be sort of a secondary function for one of my mages. So far, I find that depending on the type of fight, they are often not doing anything, because I've built them for support/debuff, and the enemies are already debuffed, or just freaking immune to various debuffs, or have a spell resistance so high it's ridiculous. So I thought I'd add in some potential versatility with dispel magics, assuming the spell resistance/DC isn't also so high as to make it equally pointless.

In general, the best builds that are for pure spellcasters are buff, direct damage, and summons.

Its very, very hard to get enough bonuses to make debuffs take effect even 50% of the time (exception -- Lich / Angel / Legend Path main characters). And if you can get them to stick, then you probably could have used a spell to kill the target rather than merely debuff them. Do you really want to Heighten "Slow" to 9th level, take multiple feats to improve your effective caster level, and so forth, just to have a chance to reduce enemies to one attack per turn? Or would you rather do all of the above and cast "Weird", and have a chance to outright kill enemies? Sure, it won't work very often, but neither will your heightened to 9th level slow spell either, and when it does work it gives you a kill, rather than a crippled enemy.

In my opinion, which you may feel free to ignore, arcane spellcasters should specialize in ray (ranged touch) spells, and divine spellcasters should specialize in summons. Both should pickup buffs when available, of course, but (generally) buffs will be cast before combat starts, so in-combat spellcasting will either be direct damage or summons. Once these spells are cast, yes, your 20th level archmage will be plinking away with a crossbow -- but that's because that's the most effective action possible.

Note that AOE damage is of dubious value in this game -- too many creatures have high reflex saves and improved evasion (only take half damage, save for none). Casting a fireball at 20th level = 0-30 damage / creature, vs. 300+ hit points isn't a very good thing to do. The rare damaging AOE that don't allow a reflex save are still worthwhile (such as Horrid Wilting [8th level] and Tsunami [9th level]), but all the low level AOE stuff allows reflex saves and is thus pretty bad. You'll end up getting / memorizing / using these spells anyway, simply because they are the best spells available for the levels where they occur, but...

Eventually (Act 4 / 5) your main source of debuffs will be Mythic spells or abilities from the main character, as those abilities tend to be... Overpowered, lets say.

[psionyx]

Originally posted by mreed2:

There is no archetype designed to do what you are asking. There are a (very few) spells that will (attempt) to dispel effects, but that's the entire extent of support for this sort of gameplay. There are no feats that specifically make dispel magic work better, for example, no classes that specifically improve how dispel magic works, and generally no recognizance in the game that someone would want to make a character that specializes in dispelling existing effects.

Well that sucks.

Originally posted by mreed2:

In general, the best builds that are for pure spellcasters are buff, direct damage, and summons.

Its very, very hard to get enough bonuses to make debuffs take effect even 50% of the time (exception -- Lich / Angel / Legend Path main characters). And if you can get them to stick, then you probably could have used a spell to kill the target rather than merely debuff them. Do you really want to Heighten "Slow" to 9th level, take multiple feats to improve your effective caster level, and so forth, just to have a chance to reduce enemies to one attack per turn? Or would you rather do all of the above and cast "Weird", and have a chance to outright kill enemies? Sure, it won't work very often, but neither will your heightened to 9th level slow spell either, and when it does work it gives you a kill, rather than a crippled enemy.

Well I AM currently building one of them towards being a Weird Killer, but you know, that's very end game, so it's not much use now in Act 3. I've currently got Nenio built for Phantasmal Killer, and will eventually trick her out for Weird. And so far she is doing fine. It's mainly for my Ember and Daeran, who will often not have much productive to do with their turns half the time. I recently fixed that with Daeran, and gave him a second myster, of Flame, so he's got some nuking ability now when he isn't healing or enchanting. It's mostly for my Ember build. I came across a build on YT that was focused on more of a roleplay concept for her, given her pacifist "I don't want to hurt anyone" nature. So it's all about Glitterdust upgraded, as well as hexing for beneficial effect to allies, and extending them with Cackle. And I enjoy it for the most part. But sometimes she's just....Cackling. Because she's already cast her debuffs, and everyone that can benefit from Protective Luck, has it, so she's just sustaining it. And since Cackle is a Move Action, I'm often just having her twiddle her thumbs with her Standard. So I was trying to see about a bit more utility for her, that isn't offensive in nature. I could have her healing, and she kind of does, but mostly Daeran does that when it's needed. So I thought, hey lets see if I can build her to have a little bit of dispel utility.

But I guess that's not an option, le sigh.

[Conquista]

spam dazzling display with ember

[psionyx]

Originally posted by Conquista:

spam dazzling display with ember

that would require several martial feats that I haven't built her for, so probably not going that route.

[Conquista]

it takes like two normal feats, weapon focus + dazzling display and one mythic feat to reduce dazzling display to a standard action

but i don't know your ember build and have no idea how difficult it would be to fit it in

still with the limitation that ember should not do any damage i would probably fit it in, so she had something to do

[psionyx]

Originally posted by Conquista:

it takes like two normal feats, weapon focus + dazzling display and one mythic feat to reduce dazzling display to a standard action

but i don't know your ember build and have no idea how difficult it would be to fit it in

still with the limitation that ember should not do any damage i would probably fit it in, so she had something to do

If you want to see the build, just search YT for "Ember Pacifist Build" should come up. video by BolshyPlays. He does a full build guide from 1-20, complete with Mythics. I'm currently at level 9 with it, as I just retook Drezen on this run.