Enigma puzzle "disguised quantity"

[Agent]

So far I have really enjoyed the puzzles in WoTR and have found some of them easy and straightforward and some of them challenging but fun. However, this one puzzle in the Enigma place is killing me. The one with the 3x3 grid of symbols and the arrows you can rotate, with the clue about the quantity reflecting the disguised value.

I know I can just look up a picture of the solution and parrot it to move on but that blows. I want to solve the thing. But when I've tried to get a hint about how to go about solving it I find multiple, contradictory explanations for what the puzzle means and none of them seem particularly reasonable to me. One place says you have to go around and find the symbol hidden on the walls or whatever, another says you have to look at the number of times the symbol is in the puzzle itself (though this one doesn't seem like it can be right), another is similar but then says you have to invert ("reflect") that count. And so on.

Has anyone solved this by figuring out what the clue means and reasoning the answer, rather than looking up a picture of the solution? I can do that myself but I would really prefer to understand the puzzle and then solve it.

[Hailspork]

Agent: Nicely done! This makes so much more sense, particularly since the other explanation would have a different solution if you took the wings of the dungeon in a different order.

Ursprungligen skrivet av JustSmile:

5... Maybe a bit meta? "Futile quest, last in line" - it's futile to try and figure out and it'll be the last one left and assigned a digit only by the process of elimination?

Not just a bit meta, its solution is contingent on your successfully completing the game (at which point, it's too late to do the puzzle). I would think that during the 1st crusade, they'd answer "1" to that.

[Conquista]

5: the futile quest could also be the fifth puzzle in secret of creation another quest from the same demonlord

[Agent]

The key assumption that eventually solved it was deciding to assume that each symbol had to be a different number. As in, you couldn't have two symbols corresponding to the number 1. That discarded the unity symbol as meaning 1 which I'd been attempting forever and let me assign the "last in a line" symbol to 5 entirely arbitrarily because it was all that was left. Honestly I probably would have given up if that hadn't worked.

[Foefaller]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Agent:

Ah, the 0 symbol being Areshkagal = Nothing is a good call. Definitely makes sense.

I don't know that I buy 5 = Fifth Crusade. Isn't the Enigma super old? So Areshkagal knew you'd show up in the future during what would be the fifth crusade when the puzzle was designed? I dunno man, that's pretty ugly.

Demon Lords are demigods in all but name, meaning their realm can be shaped, at least in part, by their will alone.

Could she have known The KC was coming when the Enigma was first built? Probably not. Could she have realize the KC and Nenio were trying to reach the Enigma in time to change the riddle for them to reference something they would know? Certainly.

EDIT:There is also the in-universe conspiracy theory that Areshkagal is actually just another disguise of The Outer God Nyarlathotep, yes *that* Nyarlathotep and he would *absolutely* be able to pull off a stunt like that countless years in the making.

[Agent]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Foefaller:

EDIT:There is also the in-universe conspiracy theory that Areshkagal is actually just another disguise of The Outer God Nyarlathotep, yes *that* Nyarlathotep and he would *absolutely* be able to pull off a stunt like that countless years in the making.

by the way, while solving the final central puzzle I found a (secret?) portal with this text scribbled on the wall: "This ancient text is written in a long-forgotten language: "Vulgtmah l' ah Nyarlathotep, uh'eog ot r'luhh. Vulgtmah l' ah Areshkagal, ah'ehye'drn ot nildh'rishuggogg."

No idea what it says, but it does reference and possibly equate Nyarlathotep and Areshkagal! I didn't know that Pathfinder included the Lovecraftian old ones.

[Foefaller]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Agent:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Foefaller:

EDIT:There is also the in-universe conspiracy theory that Areshkagal is actually just another disguise of The Outer God Nyarlathotep, yes *that* Nyarlathotep and he would *absolutely* be able to pull off a stunt like that countless years in the making.

by the way, while solving the final central puzzle I found a (secret?) portal with this text scribbled on the wall: "This ancient text is written in a long-forgotten language: "Vulgtmah l' ah Nyarlathotep, uh'eog ot r'luhh. Vulgtmah l' ah Areshkagal, ah'ehye'drn ot nildh'rishuggogg."

No idea what it says, but it does reference and possibly equate Nyarlathotep and Areshkagal! I didn't know that Pathfinder included the Lovecraftian old ones.

Oh yeah, pretty much all of the Cthulhu Mythos is canon in Pathfinder, including Cthulhu's City/Prison R'lyeh and Into the Mountains of Madness and the fact both are on Earth. Yes, Earth exists in Pathfinder, though it's currently the early 1920's there, at least in 2E. This is known because of a 1E AP that canonically occurred before WOTR, Reign of Winter, (in)famous for a chapter called Rasputin Must Die! (Though Owlcat has confirmed said AP is off the list of future games for being too out there, there is an Easter Egg referencing it in Kingmaker)

There is a town in Ustalav that is basically not-Innsmouth, and one of the Adventure Paths that's a popular suggestion for the next Owlcat CRPG, Strange Aeons, is pretty much "Pathfinder does Cthulhu Mythos," focusing mostly on the Dreamlands and The King In Yellow.

EDIT: And based on the English to R'lyehian translator I found (yes, it exists) it starts with "Praise is to Nyarlathotep, Master of Powers. Praise is to Areshkagal.." but it can't really parse the rest.

[Gabriel Wink]

This thread is a bit old now, but thanks a lot.
In my case, a cultist died on one of the symbol of the puzzle, so I can't read it (very annoying). So I looked on internet for a hint and... All walkthroughs give a wrong explaination about this puzzle. It's so frustrating, they give a screenshot of the correct solution, but with an explanation that doesn't make any logical sense.

[seeker1]

Worst problem, and I feel your pain. You find an Internet guide that claims to help you solve a puzzle.

Then, it either explains it in a way that doesn't make sense, or is, plain, wrong.

BTW, I'm convinced that Daeran's "Other" is somehow connected to the Cthulhu Mythos and is some type of "Old One". (Maybe more correctly an "Outer G-d".)

... I've never finished this, but IIRC, Areshkegal has a sphinx form, right?

Nyarlathotep often appears as an Egyptian sphinx. And BTW, loves to torment mortals with mysteries and enigmas.

[ms.sarah.orange]

Thanks for this - the obvious wrongness of 'count how many times you see them in the decor' was such palpable bulls**t - I figured it was related to the riddles and just wanted to check that theory before spending ages clicking arrows :)

[seeker1]

OK. I hate (this game's) puzzles. But I so love lore and mythology. Forgive me for jumping off on this.

Nenio's name seems close to nothing or nothingness. And she is supposed to be, eh, an "offshoot" of Areshkegal?

The demon lord's name is clearly based on the Sumerian deity Ereshkigal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ereshkigal

Ereshkigal was the Lady of the Underworld, Inanna has to descend into her realm in a famous mythological poem.

Hmmm. Here's the Pathfinder Lore.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Areshkagal

Scholars have noted for some time that Areshkagal's form bears a striking resemblance to that of Outer God Nyarlathotep, and that both are legendarily deceptive, renowned for their trickery. While no solid evidence has been found for ties between them, the similarities have led some to speculate that Areshkagal might have worshiped the Crawling Chaos in her mortal life and adopted her guise as a form of respect or deference, or in an effort to spread confusion.

[snip]

Temples to the Faceless Sphinx often include magical doors enchanted to become "riddle locks" which serve as the only entrance to parts of the structures. These portals require answering their unique riddles before they open and allow entry; answering incorrectly may sometimes cause the door to open, only to teleport the interloper to a prison cell with no exit, a far-flung desert, or even another world altogether.[4]

[snip]

Some devotees of Areshkagal gain special powers by regularly etching the Twenty-three Riddles of the Flesh —an interlocked series of puzzles no mortal has yet solved—on their skin with a knife carved from the rib-bone of a child.

[snip][end]

23 .... 2+3 = 5? (Going back to p.1 , "why 5?"

[Agent]

Apparently the clue for #5 "I am the futile quest, the last in a line" was changed slightly in a patch to make it clearer that it is referring the Fifth Crusade. Still kind of annoying since that requires the puzzle to have been deliberately created with foreknowledge of the future AND as unsolvable for however millenia it has existed, until you show up during the Fifth Crusade with the answer.

Alternatively, and I guess I prefer this explanation, the puzzle clues change over time in response to the person who is attempting to solve them. I suppose that works decently well as a reason.

[rumpelstiltskin]

this could actually be a decent puzzle if instead of the garbage obtuse hint about "quantity reflecting quality" it just showed how many arrows point at each tile graphically. maybe even solvable without online guides. ideally it would show the number precisely, like with some dots around the symbols, but could also be glow intensity, or whatever. mechanics-wise the puzzle is mildly interesting, but owlcat just don't seem to understand how annoying it is to try to solve a mechanics puzzle with many steps and super-clunky interface when you don't know the rules. or maybe they just assume that the absolute majority of players will just look it up, and don't even bother.
incidentally, the last puzzle on the map is another example of that. they clearly wanted to do something about aligning pipes on rotating circles, had all art assets made for it, but ultimately failed to get it working i guess, and threw together some totally random half-assed solution that makes no sense, hoping that someone would solve it by trial and error and post it online.

[Agent]

It's possible to solve the last one the way I believe they intended (by aligning the pipes). I know because I did it and posted the solution here. But I completely agree and have said that it appears like they wanted you to be able to rotate the circles and just, like, ran out of time to do it or decided it was too complicated to get it to work or would be too easy if you could physically rotate them?

No idea but I agree the final puzzle felt a little half baked for what should have been the culmination of the sequence.

[Jayjay Okocha]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Foefaller:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Agent:

Day 4: I solved this piece of **** puzzle. I hate you, puzzle.

Ok, I'm going to post the solution (as in, how you are supposed to arrive at the solution since the arrow directions have been correctly posted to the internet before.) Hopefully we can put to bed the dumb idea about counting decorations.

The way to solve this is to assign numbers 0-7 to the symbols that appear on the two arrow puzzles. Each symbol corresponds to a different number. You arrive at the number by reading the text on symbol hanging on the wall which functions as sort-of a riddle. A bunch of the numbers are clear, one or two annoy me but I see how it follows, and one I still don't understand but process of elimination required it. Here are the numbers and the symbols to which they correspond.

0 - (symbol on the second puzzle that doesn't appear anywhere else)
1 - I am the source and the universe, the undivided absolute. (hopefully this one is clear).
2 - I am the unity that reigns between life and death. (This one is annoying because usually unity means ONE, but in this case one is already taken so I guess life+death = 2).
3 - I am the planes of evil that give birth to demons, devils and daemons. (Another clear one. Abyss, Hell, Abaddon. That's 3)
4 - I am all sides and all directions on a sphere, the symbol of deceptive freedom. (A bit annoying but still makes sense. N, E, W, S the compass rose on a sphere/globe equals 4)
5 - I am the futile quest, the last in a line. (THIS IS THE ONE I DONT UNDERSTAND. Why? Who knows. But process of elimination meant 5 was all that's left, and it works so who knows.)
6 - I am the marilith that brings evil with every hand. (Again an easy one. Mariliths have 6 arms. boom.)
7 - I am the deadly sin that arose from a cardinal virtue. (Another clear one. Seven deadly sins, seven cardinal virtues.)

Those are the numbers. That's how many arrows have to be pointing to each of the symbols in the puzzles. Getting the arrows right wasn't bad it's figuring out the numbers that took four damn days. I can post the images of the arrows if anybody needs them, but they're already out there. It's the reasoning the solutions generally post that are garbage not the arrow solutions.

But yeah, this is the way. Super annoying and non-obvious. I still don't understand the number 5 symbol but if anybody has a clue about that let me know as its the only thing left I don't get.

Thanks, and this sucked.

For #5: What Crusade are you fighting?

And the 0 symbol is the symbol of Areshkagal, who's all about nothing, at least in this dungeon.

It's the fifth crusade, isn't it?

[Sabrine]

This thread was quite old before the recent post, so we're locking it to prevent confusion.