Trickster path question (Perception)

[Amai Mask]

Hey guys. I am currently at the moment when I can decide which path to take and I have a question about trickster path. Is the Perception rank 1 worth to take? Are there many hidden things in the game? Or better stick with stealth?

[Mr Fred]

Perception rank 1 is worth it because it unlock perception rank 2 and the improved improved critical line of special feats that are one of the major reason people pick trickster path to start with.

Dont need to pick it at mythic 3 right away as on its own its pretty bad but id pick both perception 1 and 2 at mythic 4.

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Not found any really, a youtuber tested it in late beta and did not find anything if note. Best 1st pick is arcana. +1 for all weapons and armor found and to sweaten the deal You +2 dex or any other stat gets and additional 1 too.

Effectively skill gives you the biggest advantage for a level 1 trick.

If you want perception 2, simply choose it as rank 1 and 2 next level.

[Amai Mask]

Thanks guys

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Mr Fred:

Perception rank 1 is worth it because it unlock perception rank 2 and the improved improved critical line of special feats that are one of the major reason people pick trickster path to start with.

Dont need to pick it at mythic 3 right away as on its own its pretty bad but id pick both perception 1 and 2 at mythic 4.

Improved improved critical isn't as good as people make it out to be. In order for a roll to be a threat, it needs to beat the enemy AC (or be a nat 20). If you can beat the enemy AC with an 11 roll like you get with that feat line, then it's not really that important if you can crit or not, because that should be a pretty easy enemy regardless. When you only hit on 20 it doesn't help except maybe for the +1 multiplier feat at the very end.

Metamagic: Completely Normal Spell on the other hand has a lot of uses. It's especially helpful since it can reduce the level of spells you can't cast yet, allowing you to cast higher level spells than normally possible.

[Mr Fred]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Originally posted by Mr Fred:

Perception rank 1 is worth it because it unlock perception rank 2 and the improved improved critical line of special feats that are one of the major reason people pick trickster path to start with.

Dont need to pick it at mythic 3 right away as on its own its pretty bad but id pick both perception 1 and 2 at mythic 4.

Improved improved critical isn't as good as people make it out to be. In order for a roll to be a threat, it needs to beat the enemy AC (or be a nat 20). If you can beat the enemy AC with an 11 roll like you get with that feat line, then it's not really that important if you can crit or not, because that should be a pretty easy enemy regardless. When you only hit on 20 it doesn't help except maybe for the +1 multiplier feat at the very end.

Metamagic: Completely Normal Spell on the other hand has a lot of uses. It's especially helpful since it can reduce the level of spells you can't cast yet, allowing you to cast higher level spells than normally possible.

Let's act like you dont also have persuasion rank 1 so shatter defense is always activated to ignore dex and dodge ac and holding finnean that ignore armor and shield.

Not dissing the unique metamagic it is pretty sweet to have on your buffbots but wouldnt say its the selling point of the path.

[Cutlass Jack]

Near as I can see, Perception level 1's ability to 'see hidden things' lets you spot loot items on your map in areas still covered by fog of war. I see bag icons all over maps when I first enter them.

If it let me see loot that people without that feat can't see, I've never seen any indication of it.

[Balekai]

I just tested perception rank 1 last night and found the answer by accident pretty quickly (at least I think I did). Good timing on your thread lol.

It doesn't seem to do what I and possibly most others hoped it would do from what I saw.

It basically gives you permanent see invisibility (useful) and auto finds purple/hidden caches without a perception check (not new items/loot as one would hope). The latter is really a quality of life thing that allows you to not worry about having 4 party members with high perception to make sure you detect a hidden object. Or have to reload when you know there's a cache but everyone failed to detect it. Of course you will still probably need 4 party members with high perception regardless for other things lol. BUT, you won't miss out on hidden cache loot.

The way I stumbled on this was that I wanted to know the same thing. So I was quickly going to load a save right before discovering 2-3 caches. Or go around to various areas and see if I found more stuff. I was even thinking of cheat replaying a lot of the game areas I thought would have special trickster hidden loot. I was weary of the last thing because I hadn't seen any reports of special trickster loot from Perception 1 trick anywhere.

I accidentally loaded up a save next to hidden caches (lower level of Storyteller tower), but they were already looted (wrong save). Instead of loading the right one, I decided to save some time and just add perception trick 1 through toy box. Just to check if any new boxes showed up in this location that would make sense. Instead what happened was all the grey/looted boxes that were hidden ones were being rediscovered and highlighted with purple as if I never found them beforehand.

That's how I came to the conclusion the second part of the trick is just an auto reveal of hidden items/caches/objects.

As others have mentioned the more important trick is perception 2. It gives access to improve improve critical line for martial charactes, and the Completely Normal Spell metamagic for all party members. The former obvious increases your martial crit threat ranges to godly ranges, but the latter opens up crazy metamagic munchkinism too. Like all level 1 spells turned into cantrips with unlimited casts (tested). You can now move every spell down 1 level or use all those freed up level 1 spell slots for a host of level 2 spells.

It also allows you to be able to metamagic spells with things like extend/selective spell while keeping the base level. Or not have to invest as many mythic feats for favoured mutamagic.

Lastly it has some good synergy with Sorc' Arcane Arcana from the Arcane bloodline. Completely Normal spell automatically benefits from the +1 to DCs by just moving a spell down one level. So a level 3 spell moved to level 2 will have better DC than the level 3 version.

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Originally posted by Balekai:

I just tested perception rank 1 last night and found the answer by accident pretty quickly (at least I think I did). Good timing on your thread lol.

It doesn't seem to do what I and possibly most others hoped it would do from what I saw.

It basically gives you permanent see invisibility (useful) and auto finds purple/hidden caches without a perception check (not new items/loot as one would hope). The latter is really a quality of life thing that allows you to not worry about having 4 party members with high perception to make sure you detect a hidden object. Or have to reload when you know there's a cache but everyone failed to detect it. Of course you will still probably need 4 party members with high perception regardless for other things lol. BUT, you won't miss out on hidden cache loot.

The way I stumbled on this was that I wanted to know the same thing. So I was quickly going to load a save right before discovering 2-3 caches. Or go around to various areas and see if I found more stuff. I was even thinking of cheat replaying a lot of the game areas I thought would have special trickster hidden loot. I was weary of the last thing because I hadn't seen any reports of special trickster loot from Perception 1 trick anywhere.

I accidentally loaded up a save next to hidden caches (lower level of Storyteller tower), but they were already looted (wrong save). Instead of loading the right one, I decided to save some time and just add perception trick 1 through toy box. Just to check if any new boxes showed up in this location that would make sense. Instead what happened was all the grey/looted boxes that were hidden ones were being rediscovered and highlighted with purple as if I never found them beforehand.

That's how I came to the conclusion the second part of the trick is just an auto reveal of hidden items/caches/objects.

As others have mentioned the more important trick is perception 2. It gives access to improve improve critical line for martial charactes, and the Completely Normal Spell metamagic for all party members. The former obvious increases your martial crit threat ranges to godly ranges, but the latter opens up crazy metamagic munchkinism too. Like all level 1 spells turned into cantrips with unlimited casts (tested). You can now move every spell down 1 level or use all those freed up level 1 spell slots for a host of level 2 spells.

It also allows you to be able to metamagic spells with things like extend/selective spell while keeping the base level. Or not have to invest as many mythic feats for favoured mutamagic.

Lastly it has some good synergy with Sorc' Arcane Arcana from the Arcane bloodline. Completely Normal spell automatically benefits from the +1 to DCs by just moving a spell down one level. So a level 3 spell moved to level 2 will have better DC than the level 3 version.

Thanks for the information, no new loot but quickly finding loot you may miss is a good quality if life. And I'd completely missed the metamagic feat, I don't have the right build but that could be extremely powerful. I stand corrected perception is a must have, still lvl 1 I think arcana gives you the biggest impact.

I feel the trickster class has the potential to be the most powerful when people find the right combos, and for me it is the most interesting mechanically.

[Chiatroll]

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

I feel the trickster class has the potential to be the most powerful when people find the right combos, and for me it is the most interesting mechanically.

It does do the weirdest things.

Level 3 UMD just makes you a wizard with a caster level equal to your wizard level which was great for my alchemist who already had decent int and the level 2 perk on the way stopped wands from ever using charges which was nice because I had a want of heal (infinite heal spell) and a wand of haste (infinite haste)

People use tier 3 mobility to become nearly immune to melee and if tier 1 athletics wasn't bugged tier 3 athletics would make it hard to miss which might be an interesting combo if your BAB and defenses wouldn't normally be anything to write home about. Replacing a brown fur's low BAB with his athletics seems funny.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Chiatroll:

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

I feel the trickster class has the potential to be the most powerful when people find the right combos, and for me it is the most interesting mechanically.

It does do the weirdest things.

Level 3 UMD just makes you a wizard with a caster level equal to your wizard level which was great for my alchemist who already had decent int and the level 2 perk on the way stopped wands from ever using charges which was nice because I had a want of heal (infinite heal spell) and a wand of haste (infinite haste)

People use tier 3 mobility to become nearly immune to melee and if tier 1 athletics wasn't bugged tier 3 athletics would make it hard to miss which might be an interesting combo if your BAB and defenses wouldn't normally be anything to write home about. Replacing a brown fur's low BAB with his athletics seems funny.

You overestimate how high you can get those skills. If you focus those skills as much as possible (buying feats to boost them, wearing any skill boosting equipment you can get), you might get them into the 60-70 range. That might be equivalent to an unbuffed tank or melee attacker if using them for your AC or attack bonus. It might help you dodge or land a few hits you otherwise wouldn't if used in addition to normally high AC or Attack, but it's not very good on its own for those purposes.

[Chiatroll]

I had my mobility in the 70s but I didn't take mobility 3 until the very end of the game. I was a wizard for the earlier rank 3. The important part isn't just that you turn their attack into your attack when you succeed but that even if you don't succeed they then have to beat your AC after that roll is done. Some natural 20s are failing on you without ember.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Originally posted by Chiatroll:

It does do the weirdest things.

Level 3 UMD just makes you a wizard with a caster level equal to your wizard level which was great for my alchemist who already had decent int and the level 2 perk on the way stopped wands from ever using charges which was nice because I had a want of heal (infinite heal spell) and a wand of haste (infinite haste)

People use tier 3 mobility to become nearly immune to melee and if tier 1 athletics wasn't bugged tier 3 athletics would make it hard to miss which might be an interesting combo if your BAB and defenses wouldn't normally be anything to write home about. Replacing a brown fur's low BAB with his athletics seems funny.

You overestimate how high you can get those skills. If you focus those skills as much as possible (buying feats to boost them, wearing any skill boosting equipment you can get), you might get them into the 60-70 range. That might be equivalent to an unbuffed tank or melee attacker if using them for your AC or attack bonus. It might help you dodge or land a few hits you otherwise wouldn't if used in addition to normally high AC or Attack, but it's not very good on its own for those purposes.

Yeah Mobility 3 is a little less useful than its athletics 1 and 2 mechanical counterparts. The Athletics 1 and 2 skills can be skilled to a point where you effectively have 35-45 in all saving throws for rank 2 and a 45-55 modifier for essentially dispelling any negative condition per round at rank 1 athletics. On a tanky build I would love to have Mobility 3 because when an enemy does manage to bypass your really high AC, they still have to deal with a Mobility check like Mounted Combat to actually hit. Even at 50-70 that's still an effective 40-60AC.

The true power of these martial skill tricks as you suggest comes from them being second layers of defence. Although athletics 1-2 can be taken with casters as a first layer of defence because their saves are usually really bad and they have room for equipment with the bonuses. UMD 1+2 will likely be more useful overall for casters if you get a wand of heal and/or critical wounds/greater restore you can use unlimited times a day.

The other power of the tricks is that they're VERY hard to reduce with debuffs. Not a lot of spell/debuffs that are going to directly reduce your mobility skill or athletics. The only threat to your tricks checks is ability drain which you should be immune to with buffs already. If not, athletics 1 (when its working again and properly this time) will likely deal with it easily.

Athletics 3 is the most dependable of all of them. You only need like 25ish for full BAB in any class if I remember correctly.

[Chiatroll]

Originally posted by Balekai:

Athletics 3 is the most dependable of all of them. You only need like 25ish for full BAB in any class if I remember correctly.

Did they fix the bug where you would constantly athletics burst out of your positive buffs?

[Amai Mask]

Thanks for the great info guys, it helped a lot. One more question. By any chance if someone knows can I respec as a Trickster? Won't that cause any bugs?

[GunStarX]

Anyone know if you take at different path at mythic 8 what happens to all your perception 2 feats you and your whole party already have? If every caster has normal spell, and every melee has improved improved crit how does that work? I get that if you were to respec you would not be able to pick them, but do your characters lose the feat without a respec?