Summon Elemental or Summon Monster

[Endee]

Going to try my hand at a Conjurer, was wondering what is the difference between Summon Elementals and Monsters. Is one better then the other? Any reason why you would use one instead of the other? Or is it more of a Flavor thing?

[MagnusGrey]

Monsters are better for screens because you can summon multiple for a single spell. I only really use elemental when I want a resistance to a certain elements, although the high level elemental get some powerful abilities later on.

I recommend you check out their stats and skills before deciding what works better with your party.

[JustSmile]

So to be honest both are trash. The only thing summons are good for past perhaps mid act 2 is taking hits. If you want to build a summoner MC for flavour you will either play with one party slot half-wasted or have to turn to story for your summons to be able to do anything.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by JustSmile:

So to be honest both are trash. The only thing summons are good for past perhaps mid act 2 is taking hits. If you want to build a summoner MC for flavour you will either play with one party slot half-wasted or have to turn to story for your summons to be able to do anything.

That was true in P:K but as with everything you don’t know that yet in Wrath. They have a lot more support abilities and items here. Give it time, or better test for yourself.

Ember sets up well as a Summoner, as does Cam starting with Leopards, since they have strong non-casting action economies so benefit from not needing to beat saves or penetrate Resistances.

[Endee]

Thanks for the quick reply's folks!

[Elnidfse]

Summon builds are easy to work until chapter 5. In chapter 1 they work inherently on the back of their stats. In Chapter 2 you only really get to use the Tankard of the Free Spirit and/or Duality of Conjuration and summoning.
You also need to put the book of desna on and never take it off. And ideally you'd want to be a monster tactician, Herald Caller, or Beast Tamer Bard. The first two get thanademons with +4 attack at chapter 4 which carries that entire summon on top of your other items and the latter I don't believe properly gives magic fang for his 10th level song

After that it's just a matter of mythic path. Aeon will make anything hit during it's gazes and summoner gaze combined with attack gaze is a very powerful combination. Lich gets to repurpose enemies which isn't exactly a summon build. Azata get's life bonding friendship which essentially takes Monster Tacticians gimmick and let's any class have it in reference to summons.
Which is very nice for herald caller as it gets to have actual 9th level summons.

After that you need item support. Brazen Whip is a must, finding the Fate of the Stone of Ghostly Pathways relic and turning it into a clemency of shadows is also ideal.
Book of dreams is, of course, never removed. Good hope is a free +2 and longstrider let's your summons get in position.

Source of Dividing Power, purchasable in chapter 3, works with all 3 class choices listed above (yes even bard), is an extra 2d6 (if holy) against nearly every enemy in the game.
Chapter 3 is also generally easy for Aeon tacticians and Azata beast tamer bards. Summons at this point should be a 32-35 attack at the start of the chapter and you have ring of summoning which let's you cheat out a summon monster VIII way earlier than you have any right of having it.

The rest of that chapter is going to have to be covered by Arueshalae (Ranger's Bond is VERY good and she has an additional -2AC with quarry using Big Game Gloves) and Ember's evil eye - AC.


Chapter 4, again is where things get a bit painful. Evil Aeon Hearld Callers and Monster Tacticians are running around with very chunky thanademons. Combined with previous boons you can also pick up a +5 spear (spears are simple weapons and can be used by anybody) for an extra 1d6 sonic damage on summons. Not much but it helps.

Chapter 5 is rough. Your best summons will end up coming from a head piece you'll grab off the warden in Ineluctable Prison. It's workable in core for general purpose but don't don't expect to even look in the direction of bosses.

[Endee]

Originally posted by Elnidfse:

Summon builds are easy to work until chapter 5. In chapter 1 they work inherently on the back of their stats. In Chapter 2 you only really get to use the Tankard of the Free Spirit and/or Duality of Conjuration and summoning.
You also need to put the book of desna on and never take it off. And ideally you'd want to be a monster tactician, Herald Caller, or Beast Tamer Bard. The first two get thanademons with +4 attack at chapter 4 which carries that entire summon on top of your other items and the latter I don't believe properly gives magic fang for his 10th level song

After that it's just a matter of mythic path. Aeon will make anything hit during it's gazes and summoner gaze combined with attack gaze is a very powerful combination. Lich gets to repurpose enemies which isn't exactly a summon build. Azata get's life bonding friendship which essentially takes Monster Tacticians gimmick and let's any class have it in reference to summons.
Which is very nice for herald caller as it gets to have actual 9th level summons.

After that you need item support. Brazen Whip is a must, finding the Fate of the Stone of Ghostly Pathways relic and turning it into a clemency of shadows is also ideal.
Book of dreams is, of course, never removed. Good hope is a free +2 and longstrider let's your summons get in position.

Source of Dividing Power, purchasable in chapter 3, works with all 3 class choices listed above (yes even bard), is an extra 2d6 (if holy) against nearly every enemy in the game.
Chapter 3 is also generally easy for Aeon tacticians and Azata beast tamer bards. Summons at this point should be a 32-35 attack at the start of the chapter and you have ring of summoning which let's you cheat out a summon monster VIII way earlier than you have any right of having it.

The rest of that chapter is going to have to be covered by Arueshalae (Ranger's Bond is VERY good and she has an additional -2AC with quarry using Big Game Gloves) and Ember's evil eye - AC.


Chapter 4, again is where things get a bit painful. Evil Aeon Hearld Callers and Monster Tacticians are running around with very chunky thanademons. Combined with previous boons you can also pick up a +5 spear (spears are simple weapons and can be used by anybody) for an extra 1d6 sonic damage on summons. Not much but it helps.

Chapter 5 is rough. Your best summons will end up coming from a head piece you'll grab off the warden in Ineluctable Prison. It's workable in core for general purpose but don't don't expect to even look in the direction of bosses.

Thanks Elnidfse for all the info! May i ask what zone or area may i find "book of desna"?

[Elnidfse]

Originally posted by Chico:

Thanks Elnidfse for all the info! May i ask what zone or area may i find "book of desna"?

Its called the book of dreams and you won't see it until act 2 inside the Lost Chapel.

[Ghost]

a Sorc with greater abundant casting can spam elementals all day if that's what you're looking for

[Balekai]

One really only uses summon elemental in the following scenarios:

- Fighting a hard hitting boss that does solely one elemental damage type and exploit that flaw by summoning an elemental of the same type (like another elemental).

- To exploit an elemtal vulnerability of a target.

- To exploit the Elemental's immunity to various things while still having a good reflex save (unlike skeletons).

I don't find them ever worth as others have mentioned. So few spaces and you can always mimic the immunities by communal buffing your more powerful/numerous monster/nature summons. Especially with Ascendant Summons allowing all your summons to bypass all but one immunity. If only Superior Summons effected them. :/

Another great summoning class, if not the best for good/neutral characters with good aligned summons, is a full level 20 Abyssal Sorcerer. All summons get DR/good (How many good guys are you fighting against again? :p ) every 2 levels for 10 DR/good at level 20. This makes summons of all levels pretty useful fodder vs. adds or small damage DoTs that would have instantly killed them before from evil creatures. Now they can actually distract for a few seconds more if not longer because of healing/buffs/enemy debuffs. Your higher level useful summons like Molvanic Devas will have a lot more sustain and be able to maintain those Holy auras etc. and unlike Kingmaker, DR ingoring DPS.

Abyssal also gets a second Superior Summoning like feat at level 15 for another 1 extra summon and allows you to dump strength/build a str melee sorc, since it gives a +6 to inherent strength over its bloodline progression.

[Dondu]

both trash... get "Repurpose" under necromancy, you will have a perma undead minions per map, retain the stats and doesnt have timer, its super strong

[jasta85]

Summons are fine meat shields, although honestly created undead works just as well since they all get one shot by hard enemies in chapter 5 anyway and create undead is a standard action and adds more bodies to the fight with no need for feats.

Problem (at least when I beat my first run) is that at the end of chapter 5 you go up against enemies that spam fear auras that go straight through anti-fear spells, and as I was playing a lich focused on summons, all mine were constantly running around in fear. Made it a huge pain in the ass to beat Threshold because of that without turning down the difficulty.

My current play through I'm just sticking with them as distractions instead of focusing my build around them, and then do fine in that role.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Dondu:

both trash... get "Repurpose" under necromancy, you will have a perma undead minion per map, retain the stats and doesnt have timer, its super strong

True but this is only available for the Lich Path, thus making the Lich the best actual summoner (well raiser, since undead aren't counted as summons in PnP, except for the mythic ability Ascendant Summons in-game).

That said, undead are very good meat shields because of their immunity to various things, like just about everything that will disable other summons but elementals. A "Conjurer" can get away with just using animate skeletons all day long via heighten/expend spells. It also has the bonus of saving you a whole bunch of spell slots.

There's still a good amount of usefulness in a lot fo the high tier Summon Monsters and to a lesser extent Summon Nature's Ally lines. Azata aren't as useful because Demons are immune to those heavy hitting chain lightning spams that could own even the Rovagug Spawn/Silver dragon fight in Kingmaker.

The best pount for pound summon that never egts enough love is Creeping Doom from Druid spell list. Not too many enemies can deal with buffed swarms. I wonder how summoning is on Swarm that Walks? I haven't looked into it.

Anyways none of that matters now, as I found out yesterday and clearly outdoes everything else: Trickster's Completely Normal Spell can reduce level 1 spells to usable cantrips. So Trickster's Summon Monster Zero can be summoned unlimited times a day for Pony power.

And we all know, no one can resist the power of outsider killer ponies, as I mentioned in another topic and I stand by my comments 10000%!

Edit:

Originally posted by jasta85:

Summons are fine meat shields, although honestly created undead works just as well since they all get one shot by hard enemies in chapter 5 anyway and create undead is a standard action and adds more bodies to the fight with no need for feats.

Problem (at least when I beat my first run) is that at the end of chapter 5 you go up against enemies that spam fear auras that go straight through anti-fear spells, and as I was playing a lich focused on summons, all mine were constantly running around in fear. Made it a huge pain in the ass to beat Threshold because of that without turning down the difficulty.

My current play through I'm just sticking with them as distractions instead of focusing my build around them, and then do fine in that role.

This is what I always try to do. Usually use Conjuration as a whole as a must have secondary school to counter any situations. Whether by spell resistance ignoring CC or just spamming summons when the going gets tough. It usually does all the heavy lifting in the early/mid game too.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

I recommend you check out their stats and skills before deciding what works better with your party.

how can i do that btw?

[Endee]

Thanks for all the reply's folks. Great info.