Benefits of keeping Lann a pure Zen Archer?

[Chester]

I'm thinking of reclassing Lann, I feel like I'm missing the point of keeping him a Zen Archer. His Ki Strike bonuses (Magic, Lawful, etc.) only work with unarmed strikes and not his bow, unless I'm mistaken. Almost all of his Ki Powers don't seem well suited to firing a bow (except True Strike). And his Zen Archery feat allowing him to use Wisdom instead of Dex is pointless since his Dex is so good. The only benefits seem to be Ki Arrows, which he gets pretty quick and a few nice bonus feats (and an extra attack from Flurry of Blows, which he'll keep after an immediate reclass anyway). Everything else seems to still be focused on getting him in the front lines as a tank/off tank fighting with his hands. I'm not looking for a min/max build but I'm not seeing the benefits of keeping him there long term.

(I think the build is trying to put him just behind the front lines and have him be a kind of turret with Snap Shot and Attacks of Opportunity. That seems like a lot of micromanaging though, since that maxes out at about 10 feet after 3 feats and he'll never get that close on his own)

(I'm thinking of letting him get True Strike and maybe Ki Arrows, then switching him over to either Mutation Warrior Fighter for Mutagen madness and tons of free feats or Demonslayer Ranger for some demon hatin' and a spell list so he can actually make use of his high Wisdom. Though that spell list is a little underwhelming too)

[Hekk]

Many arrows, very pew pew, such damage.

[Immortal Reaver]

Zen gets to replace his weapon dice with fist dice, which is increasing with levels. And on lvl 6 Zen gets Weapon Specialization for free.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Tom:

True

No, it's not.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Tom:

there's times many smaller attacks work well compared to one powerful attack

6d6+2d8+whatever other damage bonus is at lvl6 vs 1d8+whatever bonus is multiplied by 2. Or by 4, if it's lvl11 zen under a haste spell. With a basic flurry and bull's str on top of it Lann deals 60% damage of your single attack. Need only a haste spell and +1 weapon on top of it for these two to be even. Add additional attack from ki, and vital strike becomes viable only against very high damage reduction. In early game it is bypassed by using 50g bless bottle. Wow. Amazing. And I'm only talking about full BAB attacks.
You want to go big boom meme build? Zen1/rowdy3/vivi1/ranger1/rowdy8/vivi6. Use arcane caster fo legendary proportions/frightful aspect, dex/str buffs, use sense vitals and hurricane scrolls, use deadly aim, cast true strike from vivi and watch target explode. Well, maybe. Maybe not, it's a meme build afterall.
What you are doing is using rowdy for easy early game with no game plan for mid game. It's not a bad lvl dip, it just doesn't merge with zen's mid-late game at all. Zen won't give more sneak attacks to ramp up vital strike damage, and rowdy only gives 2d6 sneak, which is sort of ok, but could be better. And for some reason you decided to pick more than one level of rowdy, but also decided to skip lv4 with debilitating injury, though I'm not sure if it works for ranged sneaks. It should, but that's owlcat's game. Can go either way.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trolleur_Durden:

Also, an archer often doesn't need to move a lot in combat

It's not about moving. It's all about buffing one attack with true strike. Which becomes a very viable choice on unfair and to some extent on hard. Rowdy/Zen doesn't have access to it tho.

[Adeptus Stark]

Alm we know you like to munchkin and that's fine. No reason to constantly try and belittle others. We are posting on what has worked for us in our games.

Your ideas may work better with 4 or 5 class dips. Doesn't mean either is "wrong."

You must be fun to play with in PnP.

[Mauman]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Alm:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Tom:

True

No, it's not.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Tom:

there's times many smaller attacks work well compared to one powerful attack

6d6+2d8+whatever other damage bonus is at lvl6 vs 1d8+whatever bonus is multiplied by 2. Or by 4, if it's lvl11 zen under a haste spell. With a basic flurry and bull's str on top of it Lann deals 60% damage of your single attack. Need only a haste spell and +1 weapon on top of it for these two to be even. Add additional attack from ki, and vital strike becomes viable only against very high damage reduction. In early game it is bypassed by using 50g bless bottle. Wow. Amazing. And I'm only talking about full BAB attacks.
You want to go big boom meme build? Zen1/rowdy3/vivi1/ranger1/rowdy8/vivi6. Use arcane caster fo legendary proportions/frightful aspect, dex/str buffs, use sense vitals and hurricane scrolls, use deadly aim, cast true strike from vivi and watch target explode. Well, maybe. Maybe not, it's a meme build afterall.
What you are doing is using rowdy for easy early game with no game plan for mid game. It's not a bad lvl dip, it just doesn't merge with zen's mid-late game at all. Zen won't give more sneak attacks to ramp up vital strike damage, and rowdy only gives 2d6 sneak, which is sort of ok, but could be better. And for some reason you decided to pick more than one level of rowdy, but also decided to skip lv4 with debilitating injury, though I'm not sure if it works for ranged sneaks. It should, but that's owlcat's game. Can go either way.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trolleur_Durden:

Also, an archer often doesn't need to move a lot in combat

It's not about moving. It's all about buffing one attack with true strike. Which becomes a very viable choice on unfair and to some extent on hard. Rowdy/Zen doesn't have access to it tho.

I feel like you're not taking into account how perfect strike is minor boost to multiple attacks, but a HUGE boost to a single "♥♥♥♥ you" attack.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mauman:

I feel like you're not taking into account how perfect strike is minor boost to multiple attacks, but a HUGE boost to a single "♥♥♥♥ you" attack.

True strike exists for a reason. But yeah, I agree perfect strike is really strong with this one. Imagine true perfect strike tho.

[Mysta67]

Maybe I suck, but not so much, Wenduag dual axe throwing monster b***ch is insanely powerful I have'nt even batted an eyelash at Lann

[djinnxy]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Alm:

It's not about moving. It's all about buffing one attack with true strike. Which becomes a very viable choice on unfair and to some extent on hard. Rowdy/Zen doesn't have access to it tho.

I may have misunderstood here, but it's a ki power at 4. I mean i get those other dips and all but not sure if you meant something else here.

Edit: also you're better off stacking as many different sources of elemental damage, bane, holy, etc. etc and hitting a mythic vital strike with elemental barrage.

[kingsims]

Enlarge him once he gets the Wisdom to hit modifier. Then you get +4 Wisdom +4 Strength on him via buffs, and use Enlarge on him. The longbow becomes large (2d6)

Do not use Rapid Shot on him. He has flurry of blows they don't work together (but haste or speed on bow will work with him as its monk ability)

[Ghost]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hekk:

Many arrows, very pew pew, such damage.

you really don't need any other reasons

[Ghost]

just get greater enduring spells and then roll your face across the keyboard

[dwarner]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von chester.longdon:

I'm thinking of reclassing Lann, I feel like I'm missing the point of keeping him a Zen Archer. His Ki Strike bonuses (Magic, Lawful, etc.) only work with unarmed strikes and not his bow, unless I'm mistaken. Almost all of his Ki Powers don't seem well suited to firing a bow (except True Strike). And his Zen Archery feat allowing him to use Wisdom instead of Dex is pointless since his Dex is so good. The only benefits seem to be Ki Arrows, which he gets pretty quick and a few nice bonus feats (and an extra attack from Flurry of Blows, which he'll keep after an immediate reclass anyway). Everything else seems to still be focused on getting him in the front lines as a tank/off tank fighting with his hands. I'm not looking for a min/max build but I'm not seeing the benefits of keeping him there long term.

(I think the build is trying to put him just behind the front lines and have him be a kind of turret with Snap Shot and Attacks of Opportunity. That seems like a lot of micromanaging though, since that maxes out at about 10 feet after 3 feats and he'll never get that close on his own)

(I'm thinking of letting him get True Strike and maybe Ki Arrows, then switching him over to either Mutation Warrior Fighter for Mutagen madness and tons of free feats or Demonslayer Ranger for some demon hatin' and a spell list so he can actually make use of his high Wisdom. Though that spell list is a little underwhelming too)

Pure ZA gets a ton of attacks (Flurry plus Ki Extra Attack is a Free Action) and with Perfect Strike you get a lot of crits. You can add on Fortune Hex and/or Bit of Luck from Sosiel (give him Domain Zealot) to get even more.

There’s a Holy Speed Shortbow (he’s good with Shortbow because his dice grow based on Unarmed Fist damage) for sale in Drezen that does a lot of damage. Main thing is to pick up Cleaving Shot at his first Mythic.

The Combat Reflexes comes into play with Snap Shot once you can use Abundant Step to position him next to casters or rival archers to generate AoOs when they try to attack or cast. There’s an Amulet you can get that also generates AoOs and eventually with Greater Snap and Ever Ready you do a ton of damage.

The other thing is that the Ki abilities are better than they look. You only get a Full Attack on a turn you don’t move so on turns that you have to move the Scorching Ray will do more than a single attack. Later on the Ki Shout is a virtual Counterspell since the damage triggers a Concentration check and if they manage to pass that they still have to save vs Stun. Cold Ice Strike is a Swift Action so can be tacked on to any turn to do big damage in a line.

The DCs on your Ki abilities keep scaling up as you level so they’re like the highest level spells in a spell book.

[echoes222]

he hits like a truck with his bow. A good thing for me.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von djinnxy:

I may have misunderstood here, but it's a ki power at 4. I mean i get those other dips and all but not sure if you meant something else here.

Edit: also you're better off stacking as many different sources of elemental damage, bane, holy, etc. etc and hitting a mythic vital strike with elemental barrage.

You can get true strike as ki power or as arcane spell. That's why, imo, vivi is more viable for vital build. It gives ability to cast arcane true strike and also gives sneak die every two levels. Zen will give more uses of true strike and swift activation, but doesn't buff the damage.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dwarner:

Main thing is to pick up Cleaving Shot at his first Mythic.

Cleaving shot deals weapon damage to all enemies on crit/kill. At 20 it will be additional flat 2d10 damage, it doesn't look like good investment. Am I missing something?

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dwarner:

The Combat Reflexes comes into play with Snap Shot once you can use Abundant Step to position him next to casters or rival archers to generate AoOs when they try to attack or cast. There’s an Amulet you can get that also generates AoOs and eventually with Greater Snap and Ever Ready you do a ton of damage.

Sieze the moment should also work.

Now I think of it, how does Zen's perfect strike work with full attack? Does it buff only the first attack? If it works for every attack, do you need to spend a charge on each separate attack? How does it work with flurry?

[Upadły Pogromca]

I'm trying Dragonhair Scion Fighter 5 / Zen Archer 15 right now. Don't know if it's optimal but it's decent enough. You trade ~4 damage, some high level ki powers, some ki, +2 Ref save, 10 ft. movement speed, some DR penetration, 5 skill points and capstone for 3 damage, 1d4 elemental damage (acid in my case), +1 attack bonus, +1 Fort save, 5 hp, fifth warrior level for feats requirement. Not the best but flavorful in my game since he has lizard body with green skin and I made him of a green dragon bloodline.