Benefits of keeping Lann a pure Zen Archer?

[Chester]

I'm thinking of reclassing Lann, I feel like I'm missing the point of keeping him a Zen Archer. His Ki Strike bonuses (Magic, Lawful, etc.) only work with unarmed strikes and not his bow, unless I'm mistaken. Almost all of his Ki Powers don't seem well suited to firing a bow (except True Strike). And his Zen Archery feat allowing him to use Wisdom instead of Dex is pointless since his Dex is so good. The only benefits seem to be Ki Arrows, which he gets pretty quick and a few nice bonus feats (and an extra attack from Flurry of Blows, which he'll keep after an immediate reclass anyway). Everything else seems to still be focused on getting him in the front lines as a tank/off tank fighting with his hands. I'm not looking for a min/max build but I'm not seeing the benefits of keeping him there long term.

(I think the build is trying to put him just behind the front lines and have him be a kind of turret with Snap Shot and Attacks of Opportunity. That seems like a lot of micromanaging though, since that maxes out at about 10 feet after 3 feats and he'll never get that close on his own)

(I'm thinking of letting him get True Strike and maybe Ki Arrows, then switching him over to either Mutation Warrior Fighter for Mutagen madness and tons of free feats or Demonslayer Ranger for some demon hatin' and a spell list so he can actually make use of his high Wisdom. Though that spell list is a little underwhelming too)

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Zan archer is a DPS beast, going any other class reduces his potential damage due to the damage scaling of the monks unarmed attacks which for the Zen archer is bow damage.

At lvl 20 this is 2D8 but if you enlarge person becomes 4D8. At level 11 it is only 2D8 for large, and 1D8 normal size.

[Quacksalber]

I leave him as is. He's tied with Daeran as most useful companion in my experience. I also leave the succubus as is and she's terrible compared to Lann, same for Wendaug while I still had her.

[Ulterior The Panzie]

Origineel geplaatst door EH!:

same for Wendaug while I still had her.

Man idk how your Wendu was being utilized but mine just crapped out the dps. She damn near one shot some of the bosses all throughout the game! And that was on Core difficulty mind you. So while it's not max difficulty or anything I'd imagine she still hits hard even then.

As for what the OP was asking though: Like everyone else said, the main benefit is that his attacks count as unarmed strikes afaik. He hits hard.

[w.f.schepel]

I went for hunter. Animal companions are extremely useful, if only because they are an extra body on the field. With the mythical beast perk they become damage dealers in their own right. Plus, as a hunter you get some extremely useful spells. Just the extra lesser restoration available is literally a life saver with the endemic skill point attacks.

[Quacksalber]

Origineel geplaatst door Ulterior The Panzie:

Origineel geplaatst door EH!:

same for Wendaug while I still had her.

Man idk how your Wendu was being utilized but mine just crapped out the dps. She damn near one shot some of the bosses all throughout the game! And that was on Core difficulty mind you. So while it's not max difficulty or anything I'd imagine she still hits hard even then.

As for what the OP was asking though: Like everyone else said, the main benefit is that his attacks count as unarmed strikes afaik. He hits hard.

I picked her up in chapter 3. She's specced as a hunter at that point. Anyway, she missed at least 50% of the time - it was better once I gave her throwing axes, but she was nowhere near Lann's league, though ofc she had a pet to make up for it.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Either 3, 6, or 11. At 6 Way of the Bow gives free weapon specialization. At 11 ZA gains extra attack on flurry. 11 lvls replace rapid shot+manyshot+mythic rapid shot combo. It also raises lonbow damage by a bit. On the other hand, archer is not a feat starved class, so it doesn't really matter thatt much, and rapid shot is prereq for greater snap shot anyway.
I tried several builds, and pure Zen Archer turned out to be the weakest one in terms of AB. It has a bit more damage due to unarmed bonuses (about 7 damage per attack at 20), but that's about it. I think the best I got was something like 11 ZA/4 booter/ 5 mutation warrior.
4+ booter is also nice, since it gives access to ranger spells. The downside is it requires abundant casting.
I haven't tried mixing in slayer levels. Could be decent, but will require a lot of investment. Tried adding 1 lvl of rogue, but it doesn't add much while sacrificing 1 AB. I don't think it worth at all.
3 ZA, 17 divine caster is always an option too, but his domains are meh and his caster progression will be quite bad.

Btw, did they fix killing pace longbow?

[Mauman]

I went zen archer 3/divine hound x*. Judgements do a pretty good job of keeping his attack up to snuff with my strength based characters and they buff the dog too.

*and one level of loremaster to pick up greater vital strike (goes great with perfect strike).

[IKerensky]

1. He got unarmed damage with his bow.
2. He don't rely on Dex wich means you can enlarge him with no penalties and he really benefit from it as his damage scale to his size and STR.
3. 1 Ki point for another extra attack with full BAB... (with the game integrated auto-cleave, yummy).

You never multiclass a Zen archer, or you only take it as a dip. The only dip could take would be some Ranger/Hunter dip to ease with using wands of Gravity Bow and Aspect of the Falcon without CMD and the access to the Natural Weapons combat style for added damage (but the style and feats aren't in game).

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Origineel geplaatst door EH!:

Origineel geplaatst door Ulterior The Panzie:

Man idk how your Wendu was being utilized but mine just crapped out the dps. She damn near one shot some of the bosses all throughout the game! And that was on Core difficulty mind you. So while it's not max difficulty or anything I'd imagine she still hits hard even then.

As for what the OP was asking though: Like everyone else said, the main benefit is that his attacks count as unarmed strikes afaik. He hits hard.

I picked her up in chapter 3. She's specced as a hunter at that point. Anyway, she missed at least 50% of the time - it was better once I gave her throwing axes, but she was nowhere near Lann's league, though ofc she had a pet to make up for it.

Specced her as slayer15/fighter5. 9 attacks vs lann's 7. Better AB (higher ability score). Better damage due to sneak, study+quarry give another +6 att/+4 damage. Would be even more deadly, if there were any non-ice axes in mid game. Lann is early game beast thanks to his flurry. Wendy warms the bench until she gathers enough feats, then comes out and just destroys him. Mythic 4 is when she shines.

[Quacksalber]

Origineel geplaatst door Alm:

Origineel geplaatst door EH!:

I picked her up in chapter 3. She's specced as a hunter at that point. Anyway, she missed at least 50% of the time - it was better once I gave her throwing axes, but she was nowhere near Lann's league, though ofc she had a pet to make up for it.

Specced her as slayer15/fighter5. 9 attacks vs lann's 7. Better AB (higher ability score). Better damage due to sneak, study+quarry give another +6 att/+4 damage. Would be even more deadly, if there were any non-ice axes in mid game. Lann is early game beast thanks to his flurry. Wendy warms the bench until she gathers enough feats, then comes out and just destroys him. Mythic 4 is when she shines.

I guess that only works if you get her at the beginning since she's a hunter in act 3?

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Origineel geplaatst door EH!:

I guess that only works if you get her at the beginning since she's a hunter in act 3?

Yeah, hunter 3 is awful, so either sacrifice godly early game with Lann, or make her honorary bench warmer. Also, it's quite strange, since she joins as fighter 1 if you pick her over Lann. Fighter 3 wouldn't be that bad tbh.

[Conquista]

i only had her rejoin me in act 5 and there she joined exactly as i left her as a level 1 fighter

[Quacksalber]

Origineel geplaatst door Conquista:

i only had her rejoin me in act 5 and there she joined exactly as i left her as a level 1 fighter

So she was still level one? That's super strange.

[Cutlass Jack]

Origineel geplaatst door EH!:

Origineel geplaatst door Conquista:

i only had her rejoin me in act 5 and there she joined exactly as i left her as a level 1 fighter

So she was still level one? That's super strange.

She rejoins exactly at the level you left her at. Happened to me in act 3 when I got her back after fighting her.

Which was great, since it let me level her up to the current level and test out all sorts of builds with her. That's how I settled on her dual throwing axe Spawn Slayer build which made her awesome.

So it was a bit sad when I had no choice in killing her in act 4.

[AnemoneMeer]

Benefit: Bigger damage dice for arrows. More Ki Pool.
Drawback: Lower accuracy. No animal friend. No spellcasting. No sources of additional flat damage. No mobility options. No sneak attack dice. No AC optimization. No save optimization.

Zen Archer might as well end at level 3.