Seems Completely Normal Spell does turn level 1 spells into usable Cantrips.

[Balekai]

I was just doing some testing and was able to use, select and add to tool bar level 1 spells turned into level 0 spells via Trickster's "Metamagic: Completely Normal Spell" feat. They're also unlimited casts per day and the metamagic can still be removed by going to "Star" level next to level 9 spells in spellbook.

I tested this early after release, but I could have sworn it didn't work. Maybe I didn't rest or it was patched in? Maybe its Toy Box?

Anyways this is sort of a big deal and makes perception trick rank 2 even more useful: Unlimited casts of Snowball, Magic Missile, Hurricane Bow, Protections from Alignment, True Strike, Sicken, Enfeeble etc etc etc. with full caster level progression, spell penetration and modded DCs from gear, unlike wands/items. Not just for the MC, but for every caster and companion in your group that takes the feat.

More importantly: We can use "Wand of Summon Monster Zero" spell unlimited times meaning: Unlimited... planar... ponies... If true.

Just think: Every battle.. You can start with (reasonably of course) 3-4 level 2 death ponies from another world... that last one MINUTE EACH! That's like 4 minutes of ponies in total (without counting their instant deaths).

lol can anyone else confirms this?

[アンジェル]

I only can confirm the bug with the ring which allows you to summon limitless spiders.

[Radon]

You can actually use it, to meta magic lvl 9 spells down to cantrips at this current moment as well. Pretty sure that's a bug. All you have to do is down level a spell. Take that downlevel'd spell and remove and re-add the feat, and repeat til lvl 9 spells are cantrips.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Radon:

You can actually use it, to meta magic lvl 9 spells down to cantrips at this current moment as well. Pretty sure that's a bug. All you have to do is down level a spell. Take that downlevel'd spell and remove and re-add the feat, and repeat til lvl 9 spells are cantrips.

That's definitely a bug. Metamagicing metamagic. :p :P

However, I'm trying to justify whether or not this specific thing should be considered a bug, working as intended, or as it should be based on the metamagic's description/mechanics. The cantrip level 1 spells is just using the feat as it describes its functionality, not abusing an obvious mechanical bug/exploit.

It just so happened that I was testing a Sorcerer Trickster with UMB 3 spellbook and it works with spells from both spellbooks and Trickster spellbook.

Technically, all casters cast Cantrips/Orisons as spontaneous spells, as non-spontaneous casters do not have to memorize them. So from a mechanics point of view it makes sense there for everyone.

The difference between cantrips and other spontaneous casting is that all other levels of spontaneous spells have a limited number of uses a day. Cantrips do not. When you move a spell down a level, it uses those number of casts per day. So logically cantrips level, level 1 spells should do the same (have unlimited uses because they're so easy/instinctive for the caster to cast).

The question is whether or not by PnP rules reducing a spell to 0 level makes it a Cantrip/Orison. The counter to that is that the Trickster Mythic spell is bending the rulebook already to absurd levels. Also that Cantrips/Orisons are spells, so why wouldn't a level 0, level 1 be a Cantrip in funtionality as well?

[Miskatonic]

Can you heighten a cantrip into a level 1 spell? Never thought of doing that before.

Bug or not, trickster sounds pretty awesome.

[Balekai]

I just tried it, no metamagic will apply to them. :/

[phadin]

Not sure where you got a Wand for Summon Monster Zero, but even if you did, is that really a big deal.

UMD Trick 2 lets you use any wands without using charges. At least, assuming the trick is working now. (I know some of the trickster abilities still don't work.)

[Balekai]

Originally posted by phadin:

Not sure where you got a Wand for Summon Monster Zero, but even if you did, is that really a big deal.

UMD Trick 2 lets you use any wands without using charges. At least, assuming the trick is working now. (I know some of the trickster abilities still don't work.)

No it's not a big deal at all lol. I just got carried away with a joke when I thought of it. :D

Everyone loves ponies! :p

The spell is actually called "Wand of Summon Monster 0" in the Trickster spellbook as an option. Its probably a bug and should be included in the innate spells Trickster gains on Mythic Level up like all other Trickster spells and other paths.

[gmclucabel]

Originally posted by Radon:

You can actually use it, to meta magic lvl 9 spells down to cantrips at this current moment as well. Pretty sure that's a bug. All you have to do is down level a spell. Take that downlevel'd spell and remove and re-add the feat, and repeat til lvl 9 spells are cantrips.

sounds like what a trickster would do, so I vote to leave that in!

[Darx]

^