Question about shatter defenses

[amills1]

I keep reading that this is an awesome feat but I'm unclear of how it works to be trigger it. So the enemy has to be shaken, frightened or panicked and then you have to hit them. But if their AC is incredibly high already (like natural 20 only) then you aren't likely to him them in the first place.

Also, I gather it only works for the character that hit them? So I'd need all fighters to have it?

More importantly, to get them to be shaken, frightened or panicked you'd need to apply one of those conditions. Cornugon smash is something I've seen mentioned but it requires a hit and, according to the text, just applies demoralize. Dazzling display is another but it requires a full round action and a saving throw? Finally, there's Dirge of Doom but I'd need someone to take enough levels in bard?

Is that all correct?

[Sador]

Well, my kineticist for example applies dazzling display AoE every time any enemy reaches 0 hp, due to the dreadful carnage feat. And I can use it with AoE infusions that don't target AC at all. And there are often weaker minions in every fight that die easily to those. Suddenly, it seems significantly better, no?

[Bulbbis]

demoralize from cornugon applies shaken, yes it only works for the person hitting them, yes they need to hit them once before shatter takes effect. It's not worth it at lower levels but at higher levels shatter defense shaves off third of their AC so after getting that initial hit you dont need to wait and pray for another nat 20 and can start to do some damage, as added bonus you also get your sneak attack dmg if you have any

[Serchine]

Think as it makes all you future attack hits easier. Besides there's a feat let you cast dazzling display automatically after kill an enemy, you just need to take down a weaker enemy first.

[Babbles]

There is also Frightful Aspect, an arcane spell.

[[Heretic]Rivga]

It is also possible to cast perfect strike to get the initial hit, then their AC is trashed and you can maintain it.

[amills1]

OK, thanks. So for boss fights with no minions I'd need to kick things off with true strike spell.

[jsaving]

You are completely right to ask your question! So many players take shatter simply because an online build tells them to, without having any idea how to trigger the shaken condition or even a basic understanding of why they should.

Ordinarily you would have carry a tank character in your party who would take 8-10 bard levels for dirge of doom and then finish out their build with dragon disciple and/or eldritch knight. You'd apply pre-buffs like haste and good hope before an encounter, then sing dirge of doom every time an encounter begins, then spend the rest of the encounter dishing out tolerable melee DPS on the frontline while being relatively well-protected by spells like displacement and mirror image.

You can build Seelah or Camellia into this pretty easily (no need to worry about subpar charisma since you won't be doing much offensive casting as a melee tank). Also note that dirge doesn't have a save, which means it will be more reliable than some alternative ways of applying shaken.

[Sotanaht]

You do NOT have to hit the enemy first in order to "apply" flat footed. This is probably a bug, though it could be a slightly twisted way of reading the rules as written. In any case, if you have Shatter Defenses any Shaken enemy is treated as Flat Footed no matter what. If it is a bug, it's a carry over from Kingmaker and I don't expect it to change.

I can verify this through use of sneak attacks. Even an enemy not otherwise flat footed or flanked will take sneak attack damage if I have shatter defenses and they are shaken, from the very first successful hit onward.

Originally posted by Sador:

Well, my kineticist for example applies dazzling display AoE every time any enemy reaches 0 hp, due to the dreadful carnage feat. And I can use it with AoE infusions that don't target AC at all. And there are often weaker minions in every fight that die easily to those. Suddenly, it seems significantly better, no?

I want to mention, Dreadful Carnage is very bad in combination with a ranged character like a Kineticist. A kineticist will be doing most of their killing from near maximum range (50 feet usually, with extended range or an AOE blast). Dreadful Carnage and Dazzling Display only work on enemies within 30 feet of the character with those feats. You would have to waste multiple turns and put yourself in much greater danger in order to make use of the feat.

Dreadful Carnage is best used from a melee character, though few melee characters will have both the persuasion skill and the feats to make effective use of it.

Also worth noting: Frightful Aspect is a level 8 spell on both the Wizard and Cleric spell lists. All enemies within 30 feet of the character with Frightful Aspect are automatically shaken, no saving throw or skill check. The spell can be shared via Share Transmuation with a Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist, and extended to 24 hours with Greater Enduring Magic mythic ability. While this doesn't come until somewhat late in the game, it does render any form of Dazzling Display or intimidate skill redundant.

[wendigo211]

I wish they added the mythic version of Shatter Defenses (I could have sworn I saw it in the list of mythic feats earlier). It just makes all your attacks target flat footed AC, no need for a Fear/Shaken/Panicked effect.

[amills1]

It seems like the setup for this isn't overly easy. Applying one of the required conditions requires a fair bit of setup. Cornugon smash, dazzling display and dreadful carnage all require a saving throw which could be a difficult prospect. Some also require you to score a hit first which means either a natural 20 or a true strike spell. That spell is restricted to certain classes, is personal only (although I think an alchemist might be able to apply it to others with a feat?) . Frightful aspect is a high level spell so you won't have access to it for a fair amount of time. Dirge of doom also requires 8 levels of bard or 10 levels of skald IIRC so it would take a while to acquire and you'd need to have someone take those levels.

[Cutlass Jack]

Trickster Mythic Persuasion lets you intimidate everyone just for being in combat with you. No action required. Which makes Mythic Dazzling Display a waste of a feat really.

[Donnicton]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Trickster Mythic Persuasion lets you intimidate everyone just for being in combat with you. No action required. Which makes Mythic Dazzling Display a waste of a feat really.

Unfortunately outside of some specific cases you still need Dazzling Display just to get Shatter Defenses. However so many enemies' AC comes largely from inflated stats(e.g. dex) that it's still absolutely worth it. Especially when your rogue or sneak attack ranged never has to worry about flanking ever again.

[Melmak]

The easiest setup for it, which at the same time is broken OP standalone is just maxing persuation on dazzling display character and giving them one level in thug. You get every turn AoE CC(frigthen) + shaken for shatter defences on everyone who is not immune to fear effects. Makes hard a cake walk for the most part. Its kinda dumb honestly.

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by Donnicton:

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Trickster Mythic Persuasion lets you intimidate everyone just for being in combat with you. No action required. Which makes Mythic Dazzling Display a waste of a feat really.

Unfortunately outside of some specific cases you still need Dazzling Display just to get Shatter Defenses. However so many enemies' AC comes largely from inflated stats(e.g. dex) that it's still absolutely worth it. Especially when your rogue or sneak attack ranged never has to worry about flanking ever again.

I was talking about the Mythic upgrade, not the actual feat. You still need the base feat for Shatter. Unless you get the other Tricster option to ignore requirements.

Fortunately I never need to worry about flanking on my trickster though since he's a Cavalier. He's always flanking thanks to his horse.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by jsaving:

You are completely right to ask your question! So many players take shatter simply because an online build tells them to, without having any idea how to trigger the shaken condition or even a basic understanding of why they should.

Ordinarily you would have carry a tank character in your party who would take 8-10 bard levels for dirge of doom and then finish out their build with dragon disciple and/or eldritch knight. You'd apply pre-buffs like haste and good hope before an encounter, then sing dirge of doom every time an encounter begins, then spend the rest of the encounter dishing out tolerable melee DPS on the frontline while being relatively well-protected by spells like displacement and mirror image.

You can build Seelah or Camellia into this pretty easily (no need to worry about subpar charisma since you won't be doing much offensive casting as a melee tank). Also note that dirge doesn't have a save, which means it will be more reliable than some alternative ways of applying shaken.

This is bad advice. Bards should stay single class because all their abilities scale with class level. They want to be singing Inspire Courage and you can no longer sing two songs at once. You don’t need tanks this isn’t an MMO. EK is generally bad but awful with classes like Bard that trade slower spell progression for scaling class abilities. EK loses the abilities without speeding up the progression.

The description on Shatter defenses is inaccurate. It applies to every attack on a shaken enemy, it doesn’t require at initial hit to apply it.

Against the hardest foes (the ones you need Shatter against) you can take your chances Initimidating (best to use a class like Dirge Bard with a bonus to Intimidation) them with the Demoralize ability you get at level one or things like Cornugan Smash.

It’s more reliable to use effects that automatically apply Shaken like the Delicious Fright (can be reapplied indefinitely) Hex or a made save on Fear or Repel the Profane. Once you get the Frightful Aspect (lvl 15 unless you’ve merged) Spell you apply Shajen automatically to everyone who isn’t immune to Fear.

Ancestor Oracle mystery also has Phantom Touch that can apply Shaken with no save for several rounds. This is good with Daeran. Shatter is an especially good way to land Combat Manuevers.