still cheating?

[jaden_frost]

the original game cheat MASSIVELY and CONTINUALLY. Is this one the same?

[McBeardly]

Do you have any particular places this happened? I just don't recall them. Closest I remember is the Wild Hunt Monarches having a dumb summoning ability.

[JonWoo]

McBeardly a écrit :

Do you have any particular places this happened? I just don't recall them. Closest I remember is the Wild Hunt Monarches having a dumb summoning ability.

Oh I thought you were talking about DA2.

In this the closest would be the "stealthed" enemies.

[Immortal Reaver]

McBeardly a écrit :

Do you have any particular places this happened? I just don't recall them. Closest I remember is the Wild Hunt Monarches having a dumb summoning ability.

Wisps in Witches Swamp Hut and in Candlemere, but note Wisps have ability to see into Material Realm from the First World and then teleport there, so they cannot be seen by spells nor perception check until you walk past their spawn point.
Wererats in Pitax castle appear in side room from where they open door and then go to help boss to fight you, but they have high stealth so they cannot be seen by spells only by super high perception.

[Darhaksterion]

McBeardly a écrit :

Do you have any particular places this happened? I just don't recall them. Closest I remember is the Wild Hunt Monarches having a dumb summoning ability.

Pretty much every enemy had their stats inflated, sometimes it was honestly riddiculous, like those nymphs on the hill being basically untouchable

[Immortal Reaver]

Any enemy in Kingmaker that have thing added to a name or have unique name have higher stats than their PnP stats of base enemy, other than humanoid enemies (they are depedent on their level).

For example when you find "Owlbear" then they have PnP stat of "Owlbear" template. When you find "Enraged Owlbear" they do not have stats of "Owlbear". That is why some people compalain that enemies like War Wisps, bosses, Branded Trolls, Enraged Owlbears and etc. do not have PnP stats.

[Dieu-Sama]

McBeardly a écrit :

Dieu-Sama a écrit :

Interresting thread but it misses one of most aggravting cheating aspect of KM : the enemies that sapwn litteraly out of thin air during combat, Dragon Age 2-style. I HATE that kind of horrendously bad design that shouldn't be in any rtwp crpg.

Is this still there ?

Did it actually have enemies spawn in? I thought that was just your line of sight failing to reach them at first.

In KM the most blatant exemple I remember is the first Tartuccio fight, where 3 furtive kobolds spawn behind you once you defeat him, usualy right on your supports/wizards/low AC backliners.

[jaden_frost]

lazarusblack a écrit :

Snemelc a écrit :

True words, true words.

Indeed.

No a guy got mad that owlbear is cheating him because they are to stupid to make the game with out it, and he wont stand for it.

[jaden_frost]

Darhaksterion a écrit :

McBeardly a écrit :

Do you have any particular places this happened? I just don't recall them. Closest I remember is the Wild Hunt Monarches having a dumb summoning ability.

Pretty much every enemy had their stats inflated, sometimes it was honestly riddiculous, like those nymphs on the hill being basically untouchable

Your wasting your time. the people who see the various ways it cheats, and are outraged buy it already know, and the garbage defending this unacceptable behaviour are incapable of understanding.

[McBeardly]

jaden_frost a écrit :

Your wasting your time. the people who see the various ways it cheats, and are outraged buy it already know, and the garbage defending this unacceptable behaviour are incapable of understanding.

Sorry you're GM let you metagame and now you're mad about it being a bit different.

[JonWoo]

McBeardly a écrit :

jaden_frost a écrit :

Your wasting your time. the people who see the various ways it cheats, and are outraged buy it already know, and the garbage defending this unacceptable behaviour are incapable of understanding.

Sorry you're GM let you metagame and now you're mad about it being a bit different.

You're wasting your time. Dude doesn't even know what cheating is.

[EasternTime]

jaden_frost a écrit :

lazarusblack a écrit :

Indeed.

No a guy got mad that owlbear is cheating him because they are to stupid to make the game with out it, and he wont stand for it.

Hey! You're back! Maybe now you'll answer my posts!

[Uzkin]

I don't consider "inflated" monster stats to be cheating. This game uses "Epic Fantasy" level of point buy AND gives you a party of six characters (which are all under your personal control) AND gives you phenomenally strong gear and abilities (AND allows you to save and reload). The enemy stat inflation is there simply to balance this out; similar scaling systems are present in the PnP RPG as well. Thus, this is not cheating.

There are some features in KM which I kinda consider cheating, though. For example, some enemy bosses, once defeated, force your characters out of rage (and make you fatigued) and judgment and other "until-the-combat-ends" effects + heal themselves full + replenish all of their resources, and then attack you again (whereas you have now lost all your until-the-combat-ends effects and are fatigued). Another way the game "cheats" is by spawning enemies near your group out of thin air. No teleportation, no stealth; they are simply created there. Luckily, these things occurred only rarely in KM, and I hope they'll occur even less in WOTR.

[Darhaksterion]

Uzkin a écrit :

I don't consider "inflated" monster stats to be cheating. This game uses "Epic Fantasy" level of point buy AND gives you a party of six characters (which are all under your personal control) AND gives you phenomenally strong gear and abilities (AND allows you to save and reload). The enemy stat inflation is there simply to balance this out; similar scaling systems are present in the PnP RPG as well. Thus, this is not cheating.

There are some features in KM which I kinda consider cheating, though. For example, some enemy bosses, once defeated, force your characters out of rage (and make you fatigued) and judgment and other "until-the-combat-ends" effects + heal themselves full + replenish all of their resources, and then attack you again (whereas you have now lost all your until-the-combat-ends effects and are fatigued). Another way the game "cheats" is by spawning enemies near your group out of thin air. No teleportation, no stealth; they are simply created there. Luckily, these things occurred only rarely in KM, and I hope they'll occur even less in WOTR.

Honeslty I think it could have been done better, as several enemies had their AC pumped up to absurd values. Thank goodness most enemies are living, so I could just cheese them with Stinking Cloud + Delay Poison

[SKN The LISPer]

Anytime someone brings in BG into this I shake my head, as they've not played it in who knows how long, and makes weird assumptions... Baldurs Gate stayed very faithful to the AD&D system, did not change or fudge numbers(as has been suggested here, and in the P:K forums). What changed were certain mechanics, and how rounds\turns are calculated, making them realtime instead(6second for a round, 60 seconds for a turn). No numbers were fudget. Stealth mechanics in the expansion was also changed to use a light\dark system to affect penalties\bonuses to stealth. Prior to expansion, no such system existed.


As per the manual itself:

Baldur’s Gate uses the same weighting system for spells and
weapons as in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game. In
addition, we have applied the same concept of the initiative
round to the individual monster and character rather than to the
party. That is, instead of a group based turn, when first one side
then the other performs all actions, everyone is always in real
time mode, but on a personal initiative round.

The personal initiative round is six seconds long, and this
represents a ten to one reduction in the time of the round in the
AD&D rules (which is 60 seconds long). This is consistent with
movement rates (we have balanced these such that a character
moving at sixty feet per round, which is the average humanoid
movement rate in the AD&D rules, can travel the screen in
approximately one round), and with the reduction in global game
time.

Most importantly, you can pause (or unpause) the action at
any time. This is achieved by hitting the space bar or by Lclicking on the clock. When you are paused you can assign any
action to any character, and then resume the game by
unpausing. This pause feature allows fans of turn-based combat
to effectively play the game that way. One important exception:
we do not allow pausing of the game to occur when you look
into your inventory (this is to simulate the effects of changing
armor on the fly) – so be careful to have everything equipped that
you need!

Note: There are also options to have the game pause
automatically when certain events occur in order that you don’t
miss them.

The game was never designed to be difficult, a bit challenging in key-encounters? Yes. But down right hard? No. The difficulty also only affects damage recieved(for player party), and nothing else(x1.5 for hard, x2 for insane).

Was the first encounter with the Level 5 wizard difficult? Absolutelly, he instant kill most characters with his magic missile! This is why it's the third thing he uses, and instead prioritize mirror image, then horror, and only after those, do he use his 3 magic missiles! This gives you time to retreat and have the guards handle it, or protect yourself with shield. This is also one of the few high difficulty spikes in BG, and it becomes easier from there and onwards.

Random enocunters tend to be devistating and hard, but I'd argue it's a product of it's time. A level 1 party might end up with a level 6 encounter if unlucky, which isn't hard, it's downright impossible.

Barred those, the bounty hunter ambushes are the most difficult, but make thematical sense to be that way, and should be considered more of a boss-fight, than "singular \ normal encounters". Most of them are also perfectly avoidable and optional.

[Kyutaru]

SKN The LISPer a écrit :

Anytime someone brings in BG into this I shake my head, as they've not played it in who knows how long, and makes weird assumptions... Baldurs Gate stayed very faithful to the AD&D system, did not change or fudge numbers(as has been suggested here, and in the P:K forums). What changed were certain mechanics, and how rounds\turns are calculated, making them realtime instead(6second for a round, 60 seconds for a turn). No numbers were fudget. Stealth mechanics in the expansion was also changed to use a light\dark system to affect penalties\bonuses to stealth. Prior to expansion, no such system existed.


As per the manual itself:

Baldur’s Gate uses the same weighting system for spells and
weapons as in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game. In
addition, we have applied the same concept of the initiative
round to the individual monster and character rather than to the
party. That is, instead of a group based turn, when first one side
then the other performs all actions, everyone is always in real
time mode, but on a personal initiative round.

The personal initiative round is six seconds long, and this
represents a ten to one reduction in the time of the round in the
AD&D rules (which is 60 seconds long). This is consistent with
movement rates (we have balanced these such that a character
moving at sixty feet per round, which is the average humanoid
movement rate in the AD&D rules, can travel the screen in
approximately one round), and with the reduction in global game
time.

Most importantly, you can pause (or unpause) the action at
any time. This is achieved by hitting the space bar or by Lclicking on the clock. When you are paused you can assign any
action to any character, and then resume the game by
unpausing. This pause feature allows fans of turn-based combat
to effectively play the game that way. One important exception:
we do not allow pausing of the game to occur when you look
into your inventory (this is to simulate the effects of changing
armor on the fly) – so be careful to have everything equipped that
you need!

Note: There are also options to have the game pause
automatically when certain events occur in order that you don’t
miss them.

The game was never designed to be difficult, a bit challenging in key-encounters? Yes. But down right hard? No. The difficulty also only affects damage recieved(for player party), and nothing else(x1.5 for hard, x2 for insane).

Was the first encounter with the Level 5 wizard difficult? Absolutelly, he instant kill most characters with his magic missile! This is why it's the third thing he uses, and instead prioritize mirror image, then horror, and only after those, do he use his 3 magic missiles! This gives you time to retreat and have the guards handle it, or protect yourself with shield. This is also one of the few high difficulty spikes in BG, and it becomes easier from there and onwards.

Random enocunters tend to be devistating and hard, but I'd argue it's a product of it's time. A level 1 party might end up with a level 6 encounter if unlucky, which isn't hard, it's downright impossible.

Barred those, the bounty hunter ambushes are the most difficult, but make thematical sense to be that way, and should be considered more of a boss-fight, than "singular \ normal encounters". Most of them are also perfectly avoidable and optional.

What Baldur's Gate fudged was the appropriate challenge for your party level. Rather than making the numbers screwy, they simply threw more and higher level enemies than your party was recommended to face per the AD&D rules. I mean hell, they threw a CAMBION at a party of level 10 characters. And did it have the HP of a normal Cambion? No, no it did not. It had boss inflated stats.

Additionally, BG cheesed mages. All wizard encounters begin prebuffed to the point that battles in BG were about stripping away their defenses so you could actually damage them. Cheese is mandatory for CRPGs because without it the game is too easy and doesn't feel like a satisfying resolution because the Tabletop edition is not balanced to be challenging, it's balanced to be fun. 5th edition is a great example because with just some modest gear and dice rolling while trading blows any party can defeat Tiamat easily with no tactics or planning.