What makes a good Debuffer ?

[Lauro]

Hello all i was the creator of "what makes a good tank" , now this question is for someone who knows theirs spell/feat, So here goes
Currently i like to use Ray of Enfeblement & Exhaustion along with Prayers on "big" monsters / bosses but my question is what other debuff is worth it ? also anyone know if "spell penetration" affect the 2 Rays i mention ?

[Drake]

spell penetration works for any spell targeted at enemy that has spell resistance. Spell resist is pretty much AC but for spells. So it's kind of like having +2 attack rolls, except it's for spells, unless it can already bypass spell resist (there are not much of those, utually they are the spells specifically made to counter spell resist).

those 2 spell are targeted by spell resist, so yeah spell penetration works. That said, spell resist is usually on high level enemies, so you don't need to bother with it right away.

For me a good debuffer is one that has high DC and a way to counter spell resist (anything that can enhance caster level is good to have) and obviously a lot of debuff spells, both aoe and single target that can target different types of saves.

[PerfectLife]

Know what saves to target on various enemies.
Boost your DC as high as you can, this is called a DC caster.
Have a spell list with good spells for each of the three saves.
Heighten Metamagic is 100% required.
A party that can attack enemies stuck in AOE's from range so they don't get hit too.

Those are the basics.

[Insanity_184]

Pick what kind of debuffer you want to be. Single person? Focus enchanting group? I like illusion

Spell pen, focus, and heightened metamagic + there mythic variety are a must. Plus abundant casting because if you don’t first succeed have 9 spell slots per level to try again…..

Then everything is about dc. Raise it thru items, find ability’s that force the enemy to have disadvantage (those may only be main character mythic paths though), pick them feats that help it, and ability’s scores that improve it.

[elbentzo]

Originally posted by Lauro:

Hello all i was the creator of "what makes a good tank" , now this question is for someone who knows theirs spell/feat, So here goes
Currently i like to use Ray of Enfeblement & Exhaustion along with Prayers on "big" monsters / bosses but my question is what other debuff is worth it ? also anyone know if "spell penetration" affect the 2 Rays i mention ?

I'm not sure if you're asking about specific debuff spells or about the build. If you're asking about spells, then the most important thing is what PerfectLife wrote about having different debuffs that target different saving throws, so you will always be able to target the enemy's weakspot. I personally like Slow, Blind, Scare, Stinking Cloud. Maybe Confusion.

If you're asking about builds, there's a couple more things you should know. First, Witch is a great class for debuffing because she has not only some debuff spells but also hexes which can REALLY hurt. Secondly, if your debuffer is going to be your main character, the Azata mythic path makes available two superpowers that are phenomenal for debuffing -- one that turns every spell you cast that normally has 1 target into a spell with 2 targets (so if you have good single-target debuffs, you can basically use them on multiple enemies at no cost) and one that makes all your enemies rolls twice and pick the lower result when rolling saving throws against your spells while you roll twice and pick the higher result when penetrating their spell defense. The combination of these two abilities takes every good debuffer build to the next level.

[PerfectLife]

^^ I too would suggest witch as a good class to try out debuffing. The hexes give you a nice menu of "spells" to get your toes wet.

I forgot you need to know what enemies are immune to various statuses... mind affecting won't work on undead for example. The best way to do this without cheating or meta gaming is to have very high LORE skills in your party to identify monsters with. Which will also reveal the saves as well.

[zero]

there are many debuffs that are useful but anything that takes an enemy (or several) out of a fight are the best.

stuff like nauseated can go a long way, as the only thing the target can do is move, or prone, if you consider that a condition, as it gives your fighters a bonus while also disabling multiple enemy targets.

as others have stated, witch is an excellent debuffer, evil eye, cackle and misfortune can break the diffculty of a fight.

[SIlverblade-T-E]

Originally posted by elbentzo:

I'm not sure if you're asking about specific debuff spells or about the build. If you're asking about spells, then the most important thing is what PerfectLife wrote about having different debuffs that target different saving throws, so you will always be able to target the enemy's weakspot. I personally like Slow, Blind, Scare, Stinking Cloud. Maybe Confusion.

yeah Slow is superb because it work son most enemies, area of effect, does NOT harm your party, lowers AC and Ref saves, reduces attack bonus
all of which is superb for most enemies be they "tanks" or Fey

Stinking Cloud and having your melee fighters fight INSIDE the cloud, make sure they have Blind Fight feat it is a MUST have, is catastrophic to many enemies
as it targets Fort, it's great on Fey who have low Con and Fort save, but high Ref/Will saves usually

But also, do not over look "Grease", simple, low level...
if you place it well, it can keep a hard hitting but low Dexterity critter, down

Glitterdust is also superb, it stops nasty enemies going invisible which can be VERY bad!
and blinds vs Will saves

the various "Pit" spells should never be overlooked, those are AWESOME!
again *positioning* is key
at a narrow choke point on a map, or to guard a flank etc
they can take any non-giant critter out of the fight for a while, some types can do lots of damage, some can damage even very resistant enemies

In many other D&D games, the "Evard's Black Tentacles" spell is a superb debuff (as it' grapples opponents) and does damage

remember that spells that debuff a save, like Slow reduces Reflex saves, then makes a follow up debuff of the same type, harder to avoid,
So, Slow and Grease for example ;)


Class? any, really if set up well, or combo-ed with right party member
I prefer wizard, tactical flexibility, different spells for different critters
and if it's totally spell resistant, Stoneskin, Blur, etc on party members and summoned critters can help ;)
Wizard's bonus metamagic feats can also be taken to improve Spell Penetration checks, or make specific classes of spells have harder DCs to evade

Another superb Debuffer is...the bard!
their songs avoid Spell Resistance, making them really nasty
plus some good selections of debuff and buffs

[SIlverblade-T-E]

forgot:

the REACH metamgaic feat, that let's a spell be cast further away, is an overlooked but very useful thing for a debuffer, or any caster

A stealth character scouting, can find enemies, sneak your caster to a point where they can launch a spell whose area of effect can hit the target
with REACH metamagic, this allows spells with shorter range to work with this trick, too, or, from safer ranges ;)

[r_collins36]

Witch (Ember) = great single (2 with cackle) target debuff. Wizard (Nineo) going full illusion school throwing out phantasmal web = a great group, huge range, enemy only cc.

Witch debuffing single targets saves and wizard phantasmal killer = dead major single target.

[SIlverblade-T-E]

Originally posted by r_collins36:

Witch (Ember) = great single (2 with cackle) target debuff. Wizard (Nineo) going full illusion school throwing out phantasmal web = a great group, huge range, enemy only cc.

Witch debuffing single targets saves and wizard phantasmal killer = dead major single target.

I forgot Phantasmal Web, doh!
Aye, it's awesome ;)

[Gorgeous_Joe]

110W Orbital Electric Car Polisher Buffer Sander 240mm £24.99

Perfect for all your buffing and debuffing needs when you want to remove that shine.

[Kyutaru]

In any D&D-style game I consider the good debuffers to be the ones with spells that don't depend on saving throws for partial or full effect. Saving throws are too swingy and you have no control over what enemies you face. On higher difficulties they tend to have inflated saves too. So to survive the deadliest encounters, I rely on the spells that cannot be stopped completely or you'll end up wasting a lot of turns. You can stack buffs and perks to get a high DC character that can't be saved against but it generally requires a lot of combat buffing to reach and can be hit or miss (literally).

[SIlverblade-T-E]

Originally posted by Gorgeous_Joe:

110W Orbital Electric Car Polisher Buffer Sander 240mm £24.99

Perfect for all your buffing and debuffing needs when you want to remove that shine.

yes! sanding someone's nuts with a coarse grit always puts them off their aim! :P

[Darhaksterion]

Wizards are great debuffers, since they can pick whatever spell is best for the situatin. Stinking cloud + Communal Delay Poison can trivialize most encounters. Never underestimate the humble Grease. Inflicting negative levels with Debilitate can be nice against bosses (if they are not immune without a plausible reason like sometimes happened in Kingmaker). The Create Pit line of spells works wonders to keep certain enemies locked out of battle for a while. Witches work well too but I'm less familiar (heh) with their spell list. They do get unlimited use on their hexes (although just once per single target, normally) which is great. At low levels you can daze low-will enemies to keep them from doing damage.