What makes a good Tank?

[Lauro]

Hello all i was wondering maybe i was spoiled with Valerie on Pathfinder 1 , but besides Tower Shield , what other class make a good "frontline" fighter , currently im going with Paladin Sword and Shield but dont know if its worth it or not ?
Any help on this ?

[Indure]

Simplest answer is have enough AC not to get hit and some decent saves to shake off the really bad spells. There are honestly a lot of classes that can tank fairly well on all but the hardest difficulties, the arguments over "best" tank usually ends up about:

1. Who can do it the best without buffs from others?
2. Who has the least circumstantial weaknesses, like fighting enemies with true sight seeing through blur/displacement?
3. What other extra things can the build do?

[elbentzo]

Basically there are two types of tanks (there are more, but these are the simplest ones): armored tanks get high ac from using heavy armor and heavy shields, while dex tanks wear no armor and stack dodge ac (the only type of ac bonus that stacks). Generally speaking, dex tanks in PF are usually more effective, but unless you're playing on high difficulty, both can be viable. Especially in WotR where mythic feats and abilities can push ac even higher.

Paladins are usually not considered great tanks. They do get amazing saving throws (which is good because a tank is useless if they're knocked prone or put to sleep or whatever), but they can't stack ac quite as well as fighters (who get tower shield proficiency and also armor training). Moreover, paladins are considered a feat-starved class, meaning they get very few feats while they can benefit from many. Fighters get literally twice as many feats, making them able to take the feats necessary to tank (like crane style, dodge, toughness, shield feats if you want) while also having good offensive capabilities or utility. A paladin will have to use up more or less all their choices on defensive feats in order to tank well, making them lackluster in other areas.

But before you decide to roll a dex tank, or fighter or slayer if you prefer the style of an armored tank, there are a couple of things you should know. First, if you're not trying to push yourself to high difficulties, non-optimized tanks can still be effective. All the criticism about paladins is correct from a min/max perspective, but if you're playing at normal difficulty you don't have to min/max and your paladin will probably be fine. Second, there are a few things to know that can help you make your paladin a very decent tank even on higher difficulties:

1. You can pick the divine guardian archetype. You will lose all spellcasting abilities, which is a deal breaker for some, but if it's not a deal breaker for you, you will get some extra defensive abilities, including 3 bonus feats from a very defensive list.

2. You may never reach the ac of some other armored tanks (or dex tanks), but your self heal ability can be used to mitigate it. A swift action for a very decent amount of hp means you can afford getting hit more often than other tanks, because as long as you don't die, you can heal and keep on fighting.

3. Divine bond is your best friend. You can choose between a divine bond with a mount or with your weapon. If you choose a mount, you can ride it in WotR, which will make you much tankier. Not only do mounts make great tanks, but they will also take a lot of the heat off of your paladin (about half the attacks will be directed at them and not the paladin). Also, you can invest a feat to make them even tankier by using your mobility skill. Should you choose to have a divine bond with your weapon, you can just focus all the bonus you get into the defending property, which translates into a stacking bonus to ac. True, you won't be able to use the other cool abilities your weapon could have, but you will make up for armor training in terms of ac.

This post has gone on too long already so I'll spare you other options for armored tanks. Just pick what seems cool to you, browse a bit on the web or ask someone who knows and you'll probably be able to make it into a decent tank.

[Sophis]

Sword and shield works just fine. Either fighter, paladin, whatever you want as long as you build it around being defensive, with enough AC and saves.

If you want something different, a monk/magus or similar can get stupid high AC and almost never get hit at all with displacement, mirror image, high dodge etc (except on some bosses or other high level enemies who might have true seeing). while still putting out good dps and crowd control (a pure tower shield specialist like Valerie has next to 0 contribution on dps, being basically a meat shield). So you can be tanky and have lots of extra things to do.

Both work, so it's up to you. If you're playing on normal, a basic sword and shield character can tank just fine. On higher difficulties, you might wanna consider a little multiclassing to match enemies' high stats.

[zero]

a tank? in PF? what?

there is no tank role in D&D/PF, thats not how the classes are divided.

while some classes are more defensive then others (or acquire feats to make them such) there is no aggro system like a mmo, monsters will attack who they attack and you cant really do much to change that aside from charms.

if you wish to reduce the harm you recieve, the #1 most important thing is mitigation and control, wizards and clerics excell at that, grease is the first CC spell you get and its one of the strongest, can easily take 4 people out of a fight for a period of time, and clerics get bless, which increases your ability to land your attack, which ends combat faster.

[Indure]

Originally posted by zero:

a tank? in PF? what?

there is no tank role in D&D/PF, thats not how the classes are divided.

while some classes are more defensive then others (or acquire feats to make them such) there is no aggro system like a mmo, monsters will attack who they attack and you cant really do much to change that aside from charms.

if you wish to reduce the harm you recieve, the #1 most important thing is mitigation and control, wizards and clerics excell at that, grease is the first CC spell you get and its one of the strongest, can easily take 4 people out of a fight for a period of time, and clerics get bless, which increases your ability to land your attack, which ends combat faster.

While that may be true in the table top experience, in the video game version, the enemies will latch on to the first thing they can reach and will avoid opportunity attacks, so you can very much "hold aggro."

[Lauro]

Originally posted by elbentzo:

Basically there are two types of tanks (there are more, but these are the simplest ones): armored tanks get high ac from using heavy armor and heavy shields, while dex tanks wear no armor and stack dodge ac (the only type of ac bonus that stacks). Generally speaking, dex tanks in PF are usually more effective, but unless you're playing on high difficulty, both can be viable. Especially in WotR where mythic feats and abilities can push ac even higher.

Paladins are usually not considered great tanks. They do get amazing saving throws (which is good because a tank is useless if they're knocked prone or put to sleep or whatever), but they can't stack ac quite as well as fighters (who get tower shield proficiency and also armor training). Moreover, paladins are considered a feat-starved class, meaning they get very few feats while they can benefit from many. Fighters get literally twice as many feats, making them able to take the feats necessary to tank (like crane style, dodge, toughness, shield feats if you want) while also having good offensive capabilities or utility. A paladin will have to use up more or less all their choices on defensive feats in order to tank well, making them lackluster in other areas.

But before you decide to roll a dex tank, or fighter or slayer if you prefer the style of an armored tank, there are a couple of things you should know. First, if you're not trying to push yourself to high difficulties, non-optimized tanks can still be effective. All the criticism about paladins is correct from a min/max perspective, but if you're playing at normal difficulty you don't have to min/max and your paladin will probably be fine. Second, there are a few things to know that can help you make your paladin a very decent tank even on higher difficulties:

1. You can pick the divine guardian archetype. You will lose all spellcasting abilities, which is a deal breaker for some, but if it's not a deal breaker for you, you will get some extra defensive abilities, including 3 bonus feats from a very defensive list.

2. You may never reach the ac of some other armored tanks (or dex tanks), but your self heal ability can be used to mitigate it. A swift action for a very decent amount of hp means you can afford getting hit more often than other tanks, because as long as you don't die, you can heal and keep on fighting.

3. Divine bond is your best friend. You can choose between a divine bond with a mount or with your weapon. If you choose a mount, you can ride it in WotR, which will make you much tankier. Not only do mounts make great tanks, but they will also take a lot of the heat off of your paladin (about half the attacks will be directed at them and not the paladin). Also, you can invest a feat to make them even tankier by using your mobility skill. Should you choose to have a divine bond with your weapon, you can just focus all the bonus you get into the defending property, which translates into a stacking bonus to ac. True, you won't be able to use the other cool abilities your weapon could have, but you will make up for armor training in terms of ac.

This post has gone on too long already so I'll spare you other options for armored tanks. Just pick what seems cool to you, browse a bit on the web or ask someone who knows and you'll probably be able to make it into a decent tank.

Hey man thanks for taking your time with this . belive me for me it helps :)

[Snefru]

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by zero:

a tank? in PF? what?

there is no tank role in D&D/PF, thats not how the classes are divided.

while some classes are more defensive then others (or acquire feats to make them such) there is no aggro system like a mmo, monsters will attack who they attack and you cant really do much to change that aside from charms.

if you wish to reduce the harm you recieve, the #1 most important thing is mitigation and control, wizards and clerics excell at that, grease is the first CC spell you get and its one of the strongest, can easily take 4 people out of a fight for a period of time, and clerics get bless, which increases your ability to land your attack, which ends combat faster.

While that may be true in the table top experience, in the video game version, the enemies will latch on to the first thing they can reach and will avoid opportunity attacks, so you can very much "hold aggro."

Can a backline character draw enemies off others by doing a lot of damage like my caster?

[Dark3nedDragon]

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by zero:

a tank? in PF? what?

there is no tank role in D&D/PF, thats not how the classes are divided.

while some classes are more defensive then others (or acquire feats to make them such) there is no aggro system like a mmo, monsters will attack who they attack and you cant really do much to change that aside from charms.

if you wish to reduce the harm you recieve, the #1 most important thing is mitigation and control, wizards and clerics excell at that, grease is the first CC spell you get and its one of the strongest, can easily take 4 people out of a fight for a period of time, and clerics get bless, which increases your ability to land your attack, which ends combat faster.

While that may be true in the table top experience, in the video game version, the enemies will latch on to the first thing they can reach and will avoid opportunity attacks, so you can very much "hold aggro."

You sure we're playing the same game?

In the video game version they will randomly start chasing around your casters and ranged, especially on Core.

[Arden]

Originally posted by Satan:

...

You sure we're playing the same game?

In the video game version they will randomly start chasing around your casters and ranged, especially on Core.

This occurs only if the "tank" is not doing enough damage. 2 melee with high attack and high ac are enough to prevent it from happening. Buffed pets work very well too.

[Indure]

Originally posted by Sparkle:

Originally posted by Indure:

While that may be true in the table top experience, in the video game version, the enemies will latch on to the first thing they can reach and will avoid opportunity attacks, so you can very much "hold aggro."

Can a backline character draw enemies off others by doing a lot of damage like my caster?

To my knowledge ... no. The only way I've seen an enemy "lose aggro" is if they can't possibly hit their current target. At which point they may shift to a new target. But this seems to have hidden variables like time, or number of failed attacks prior to the trigger.

[Indure]

Originally posted by Satan:

Originally posted by Indure:

While that may be true in the table top experience, in the video game version, the enemies will latch on to the first thing they can reach and will avoid opportunity attacks, so you can very much "hold aggro."

You sure we're playing the same game?

In the video game version they will randomly start chasing around your casters and ranged, especially on Core.

I have not really witness this (currently playing on core). I've seen them attack casters and ranged at the beginning of combat when they are first seeking their targets, but once they have locked onto a target they seem to rarely change.

[zero]

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by Satan:

You sure we're playing the same game?

In the video game version they will randomly start chasing around your casters and ranged, especially on Core.

I have not really witness this (currently playing on core). I've seen them attack casters and ranged at the beginning of combat when they are first seeking their targets, but once they have locked onto a target they seem to rarely change.

pretty much sums it up, the ai is very simplistic, so if they can keep hitting you, they will, which ironically makes it impossible to tank cause if your AC is too high, they'll miss enough times to try to find someone else.

[PerfectLife]

Can you guys please put down your "I played a lot of Kingmaker so I know what's best" thoughts because you're wasting your time.

In Wrath what makes a good tank is high DR as well as Fast Healing or Life Leech of some kind. You don't want to care about AC for your tank as enemies in Wrath will go find someone else to hit after a few misses. So what you want is a tank they keep hitting, but who isn't taking much damage. This is best accomplished by MC but I bet you could manage it with a companion or two.

After this you have pets which are usually several levels below the party and revive for free after a rest.

And, after that you have summons.

Finally the biggest IQ brain move is to use CC and/or a choke point since enemies can not move through allies..

Remember to give me awards for steam points.

[Indure]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by Indure:

I have not really witness this (currently playing on core). I've seen them attack casters and ranged at the beginning of combat when they are first seeking their targets, but once they have locked onto a target they seem to rarely change.

pretty much sums it up, the ai is very simplistic, so if they can keep hitting you, they will, which ironically makes it impossible to tank cause if your AC is too high, they'll miss enough times to try to find someone else.

I can't speak for the complexity of the code, but the result is an AI that seems to stick to targets once they acquire them.

I'm not sure if a smarter AI would improve the game in any way though. If the AI was more intelligent it would just minimize build variety and party composition. It would be less of a game about specializing in roles and more about everyone needs to be a jack-of-all-trades.

[Lauro]

Originally posted by PerfectLife:

Can you guys please put down your "I played a lot of Kingmaker so I know what's best" thoughts because you're wasting your time.

In Wrath what makes a good tank is high DR as well as Fast Healing or Life Leech of some kind. You don't want to care about AC for your tank as enemies in Wrath will go find someone else to hit after a few misses. So what you want is a tank they keep hitting, but who isn't taking much damage. This is best accomplished by MC but I bet you could manage it with a companion or two.

After this you have pets which are usually several levels below the party and revive for free after a rest.

And, after that you have summons.

Finally the biggest IQ brain move is to use CC and/or a choke point since enemies can not move through allies..

Remember to give me awards for steam points.

Hey you mention Life Leech right ? like what skill/abilties/feats ?