Is it viable to take a Witch instead of a Sorc/Wiz?

[Rudel]

Question is in the title, currently (restarted on core) running my MC as a Kinecticist + Heal (Daeran) + Archer (Wendu) + Tank (Seelah) + Offtank (Camelia) and there's only one spot left. Ember with Slumber, Web and Hexes seems to be a very good CC but how is situation later on?

[Lord_WC]

If you have a kineticist the rest 5 doesn't really matter. They just have to kill the occasional trip/bull rush immune mobs (or rather hold them in place until deadly earth+cloud does its job).

[Rudel]

I have no idea what that is, but I'm looking forward to it. You convinced me though, I benched Ember for Foxy

[Kaytid]

Respec Seelah into bard and she gets haste.

[joonkimdmd]

I think witches are sorc and wizard plus more.

[Daedaliavallis]

Frankly my Commander is a Witch and she's doing some pretty gnarly damage and curses. Ley-Line Guardians are immediate casters so there's that in favor. I specced her into Winter Witch, and gave her some mythic abilities to enhance her ice damage and spell penetration. Ice Prison is nice for taking down the AC of many enemies later on and if you get your party enough cold protection Ice Storm became my go-to instead of Grease/Entangle.

Originally posted by Rainnd:

I don't believe witches get access to haste and stoneskin and both of these buffs are something I just can't part with.

Woljif gets Haste and you can get Iceplant as a witch instead of Stoneskin. +2 AC and Endure Elements buff.

[MACIORELLA]

hagbound is bugged as claws does not make any dmg though....

[Agent]

I just really wish Nenio didn't have Abjuration as an opposition school. It means ponying up the cash to constantly cast stoneskin off scrolls, which means either buying them or scribing them. Both are expensive.

[HTakara]

Ember is so good, you don't need to make a generic one.

[The Silver Santana]

The real problem is the lack of arcane buffs. Displacement, haste, and greater invisibility are super powerful. Your party also lacks a bard though, so my advice is as follows for maximum min-maxing-

1. This is important-respec Seelah as a bard/dragon disciple. Pick up Mithral chain-mail ASAP, and until then use her for bard song. She gets all the important wizard buffs (Haste, greater invisibility, and greater heroism/good hope) while also having bard songs, which add bonuses you can't get otherwise. Then you can add Ember with no concerns-Wizard spells are great and all, but Ember can handle most of the CC and AOE that you need.

2. Drop Daerun for a cleric. I personally build Lann as a cleric instead of using Sosiel, but you don't have Lann.

3. Cameilla becomes the main-tank. She has a high DEX and can use a buckler with fencing grace (Which she should bee-line ASAP), she can pick a few feats to get access to scaling pseudo-mage armor (Air barrier, I think?), and can self-cast buffs like Barkskin to make her AC great. She will never have maxed AC, but neither will Seelah, and late game her AC will be much higher than Seelah's ever will be. There just isn't enough heavy armor support in the game.

[Agent]

Santana: if you use bard/witch as your arcane casters do you just do without stoneskin?

[The Silver Santana]

Originally posted by Agent:

Santana: if you use bard/witch as your arcane casters do you just do without stoneskin?

Yes. Stoneskin isn't what it's cracked up to be anyway-a lot of enemies seem to cheat with DR, but regardless you can achieve the same effect by being unhittable that you can by having DR 10. There are also other spells that provide DR, such as legendary proportions, which Witches do get access too. In general Ember can grab some buffing duties at high levels, it's just early levels that you want to focus super hard on her debuff role.

Of course, you can also just use scrolls, you are oversaturated with high charisma characters to make a use magic device roll.

[Rudel]

Originally posted by The Silver Santana:

The real problem is the lack of arcane buffs. Displacement, haste, and greater invisibility are super powerful. Your party also lacks a bard though, so my advice is as follows for maximum min-maxing-

1. This is important-respec Seelah as a bard/dragon disciple. Pick up Mithral chain-mail ASAP, and until then use her for bard song. She gets all the important wizard buffs (Haste, greater invisibility, and greater heroism/good hope) while also having bard songs, which add bonuses you can't get otherwise. Then you can add Ember with no concerns-Wizard spells are great and all, but Ember can handle most of the CC and AOE that you need.

2. Drop Daerun for a cleric. I personally build Lann as a cleric instead of using Sosiel, but you don't have Lann.

3. Cameilla becomes the main-tank. She has a high DEX and can use a buckler with fencing grace (Which she should bee-line ASAP), she can pick a few feats to get access to scaling pseudo-mage armor (Air barrier, I think?), and can self-cast buffs like Barkskin to make her AC great. She will never have maxed AC, but neither will Seelah, and late game her AC will be much higher than Seelah's ever will be. There just isn't enough heavy armor support in the game.

This sounds like a great plan, I have Seelah as a Demonslayer at the moment but I'll give her a Bard makeover. Can she still tank in the first chapters? Because I know that Camilla is a good DEX tank, but she needs some buildup for that and at the moment I'm still missing some key items / feats. Regarding Daeron I'm still in the first chapter on my re-run so no Sosiel so far.

[The Silver Santana]

Originally posted by Rudel:

Originally posted by The Silver Santana:

The real problem is the lack of arcane buffs. Displacement, haste, and greater invisibility are super powerful. Your party also lacks a bard though, so my advice is as follows for maximum min-maxing-

1. This is important-respec Seelah as a bard/dragon disciple. Pick up Mithral chain-mail ASAP, and until then use her for bard song. She gets all the important wizard buffs (Haste, greater invisibility, and greater heroism/good hope) while also having bard songs, which add bonuses you can't get otherwise. Then you can add Ember with no concerns-Wizard spells are great and all, but Ember can handle most of the CC and AOE that you need.

2. Drop Daerun for a cleric. I personally build Lann as a cleric instead of using Sosiel, but you don't have Lann.

3. Cameilla becomes the main-tank. She has a high DEX and can use a buckler with fencing grace (Which she should bee-line ASAP), she can pick a few feats to get access to scaling pseudo-mage armor (Air barrier, I think?), and can self-cast buffs like Barkskin to make her AC great. She will never have maxed AC, but neither will Seelah, and late game her AC will be much higher than Seelah's ever will be. There just isn't enough heavy armor support in the game.

This sounds like a great plan, I have Seelah as a Demonslayer at the moment but I'll give her a Bard makeover. Can she still tank in the first chapters? Because I know that Camilla is a good DEX tank, but she needs some buildup for that and at the moment I'm still missing some key items / feats. Regarding Daeron I'm still in the first chapter on my re-run so no Sosiel so far.

Seelah can absolutely tank in the first few chapters as a Bard multiclass. Just don't use bard spells while in armor, and pick up cure light wounds. Just use her as a healing wand/song girl until she's leveled up. Nothing prevents her from wearing armor, and 1 lost attack and a few less Paladin abilities won't break the bank. For the first few levels attributes and proficiency are more important than class, really.

Alternatively, respec her later and keep her Paladin for now.

[Daedaliavallis]

Originally posted by The Silver Santana:

The real problem is the lack of arcane buffs. Displacement, haste, and greater invisibility are super powerful.

2. Drop Daerun for a cleric. I personally build Lann as a cleric instead of using Sosiel, but you don't have Lann.

Not sure why anyone would do this. Daeran as oracle healer when he gets the mythic feat for healing is healing about 1/2 of my team's hp with each channel energy because of his massive charisma stat (between 30-40 hp), and reviving dead allies easily with his immediate casting. Woljif, honestly, is better for invisibility/haste. He gets them in his default auto-level even, and then he gets grease early on which is incredibly stupid powerful in low levels because you can just bottle neck a roomful of enemies and whoops them all.

[The Silver Santana]

Originally posted by Daedaliavallis:

Originally posted by The Silver Santana:

The real problem is the lack of arcane buffs. Displacement, haste, and greater invisibility are super powerful.

2. Drop Daerun for a cleric. I personally build Lann as a cleric instead of using Sosiel, but you don't have Lann.

Not sure why anyone would do this. Daeran as oracle healer when he gets the mythic feat for healing is healing about 1/2 of my team's hp with each channel energy because of his massive charisma stat (between 30-40 hp), and reviving dead allies easily with his immediate casting. Woljif, honestly, is better for invisibility/haste. He gets them in his default auto-level even, and then he gets grease early on which is incredibly stupid powerful in low levels because you can just bottle neck a roomful of enemies and whoops them all.

Because clerics aren't for healing. Oh, sure, you use the channel to heal, but that's incidental. They're for buffing things, particularly themselves, with buffs that aren't on other lists. Oracles lack the spells known too cover all the situational buffs you need, like death ward, freedom of movement, and shield of faith, while also supplementing with real spellcasting. That isn't to say you can't pull it off, but I also don't like Daerun's build because he does not have an effective weapon with his crippling low STR. He's probably better than Sosiel, but I like Lann's build better (his stats are higher overall).

Daerun is absolutelyy usable, but I like him as the sixth man rather than as my main divine caster. Stick him in the back and make him an evocation/necromancy specialist and play him basically like a sorcerer-that's my ideal build for him.

Woljik is not better for invisibility and haste, although you can multiclass vivisectionist to eventually have him fill that role (also, you should, probably), but you can play it that way if you want. Long-term you need a Bard for the competence and morale bonuses, though.