Difference in caster classes

[Kevin905niveK]

So im building mercs to test out classes and as im building a caster im confused as to why anyone would go anything other the sorc.

Sure wizards and witches get there spells 1 level earlier but by level 20 sorcs can cast 17 more spells per rest then them. Arcanist makes even less sense to me since they learn spells later and get less casts overall.

is there some bonuses that wizards get that sorcs dont? Im assuming witches get less because of their hexes.

Why are arcanists thrown behind? Are the arcane exploits worth the fact you lose out on so many spells?

[Morgian]

All caster classes have different advantages.

Spellwise
Sorcerer: most spell per day, least spells known/available
Wizard: medium spells per day, theoretically knows all spells and can switch them each rest
Arcanist: can learn all spells, but picks a list each day, which he uses like a sorcerer

Featurewise
Sorcerer: bloodline
Wizard: bonus feats, schools
Arcanist: exploits

The schools are weak, bloodlines a little better, exploits best - but the centerpoint is the spells.

[XartaX]

Wizards are Batman. If you know what you have to deal with and prepare accordingly, they're the best spellcaster. They can also learn every single spell, and then proceed to make scrolls out of said spells from their spellbook. So they can run around with an answer to everything in their bags.

[Damedius]

Wizards can learn more spells. You can copy the scrolls you find into their spellbook.

Sorcerer have less spells to choose from but can cast any of those spells without having to memorise specific ones.

I say, why not both?

[JonWoo]

Wizards can prepare a larger variety of spells and swap out spells for something they might need while sorcerers are stuck with the spells they choose but can use them more often between rests. Arcanists can prepare the same number of spells that sorcerers know but they can also swap them out like the wizard.

Arcanists have more casts than wizards but fewer slots to prepare spells and fewer casts than sorcerers. Some of their exploits are pretty good. Potent Magic and Dimensional Slide being two of them. They'd be better if they also had Metamixing and Quick Study.

[Darkwing†Duck]

If bloodline not bother you, just pick Exploiter Wizard.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Wizards are the quintessential arcane spellcasters. The reason they are so extremely powerful is their versatility that is only limited by the spellbooks (in the TT version) they would have to lug around.

They get bonus feats like fighters on top of regular feats. Unlike Sorcerers (who need to invest), they can just use metamagic feats to make their spells even more powerful without having to think about casting time. They are the gods on the TT after level 10. Not necessarily so much in CRPGs. But they are still top tier blasters and god tier controllers.

Arcanists are basically a weird bunch, a mix between sorcerer and wizard. You do not lose out much if you play an arcanist. And mind you, there ist he Brown Fur Transmuter in the game and god help me if I allow that one at a TT table. I am sure, properly built, a BFT will do more damage than my barbarian until late level.

Witches are even stranger. I am loath to allow a Necromancer specialist witch on a TT table since if you stretch the DCs, the witch will take out single targets so hard, even the next campaign's boss will have a headache. They can become incredibly powerful debuffers or support in the party but they suffer against demons a bit since the spellresistance hurts against their magic and they cannot simply lower it by using bonus feats. Their hexes are supernatural/exceptional abilities. So no AoO, no SR ... only mental immunities help you, if applicable.

In therory, it pans out what you want to do:

-Jack of all trades buffbot/controller/abjurer/dispeller -> Wizard
-Specialist (of whatever, mostly damage) -> Sorcerer
- Debuffer/Buffbot with a narrower selection of spells and less headaches about SR -> Witch
- Jack of all trades AND specialist of certain ways -> Arcanist

All that applies to pure characters. If we get started about dipping one or the other, god help us. :)

[XartaX]

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

Wizards are the quintessential arcane spellcasters. The reason they are so extremely powerful is their versatility that is only limited by the spellbooks (in the TT version) they would have to lug around.

They get bonus feats like fighters on top of regular feats. Unlike Sorcerers (who need to invest), they can just use metamagic feats to make their spells even more powerful without having to think about casting time. They are the gods on the TT after level 10. Not necessarily so much in CRPGs. But they are still top tier blasters and god tier controllers.

Arcanists are basically a weird bunch, a mix between sorcerer and wizard. You do not lose out much if you play an arcanist. And mind you, there ist he Brown Fur Transmuter in the game and god help me if I allow that one at a TT table. I am sure, properly built, a BFT will do more damage than my barbarian until late level.

Witches are even stranger. I am loath to allow a Necromancer specialist witch on a TT table since if you stretch the DCs, the witch will take out single targets so hard, even the next campaign's boss will have a headache. They can become incredibly powerful debuffers or support in the party but they suffer against demons a bit since the spellresistance hurts against their magic and they cannot simply lower it by using bonus feats. Their hexes are supernatural/exceptional abilities. So no AoO, no SR ... only mental immunities help you, if applicable.

In therory, it pans out what you want to do:

-Jack of all trades buffbot/controller/abjurer/dispeller -> Wizard
-Specialist (of whatever, mostly damage) -> Sorcerer
- Debuffer/Buffbot with a narrower selection of spells and less headaches about SR -> Witch
- Jack of all trades AND specialist of certain ways -> Arcanist

All that applies to pure characters. If we get started about dipping one or the other, god help us. :)

Slumber hex>Coup de Grace>Sad boss

[phadin]

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

Wizards are the quintessential arcane spellcasters. The reason they are so extremely powerful is their versatility that is only limited by the spellbooks (in the TT version) they would have to lug around.

They get bonus feats like fighters on top of regular feats. Unlike Sorcerers (who need to invest), they can just use metamagic feats to make their spells even more powerful without having to think about casting time. They are the gods on the TT after level 10. Not necessarily so much in CRPGs. But they are still top tier blasters and god tier controllers.

Arcanists are basically a weird bunch, a mix between sorcerer and wizard. You do not lose out much if you play an arcanist. And mind you, there ist he Brown Fur Transmuter in the game and god help me if I allow that one at a TT table. I am sure, properly built, a BFT will do more damage than my barbarian until late level.

Witches are even stranger. I am loath to allow a Necromancer specialist witch on a TT table since if you stretch the DCs, the witch will take out single targets so hard, even the next campaign's boss will have a headache. They can become incredibly powerful debuffers or support in the party but they suffer against demons a bit since the spellresistance hurts against their magic and they cannot simply lower it by using bonus feats. Their hexes are supernatural/exceptional abilities. So no AoO, no SR ... only mental immunities help you, if applicable.

In therory, it pans out what you want to do:

-Jack of all trades buffbot/controller/abjurer/dispeller -> Wizard
-Specialist (of whatever, mostly damage) -> Sorcerer
- Debuffer/Buffbot with a narrower selection of spells and less headaches about SR -> Witch
- Jack of all trades AND specialist of certain ways -> Arcanist

All that applies to pure characters. If we get started about dipping one or the other, god help us. :)

I never quite understood the appeal of the shapeshifting spells on the arcane casters. Dont' get me wrong, I LOVE shapeshifting. First PF TT game I got to be in since forever I am playing an Adaptive Shifter.

But casters kinda suck at it. The transmutation spells give some minor buffs to str, dex, and/or Con, but not enough to match up to a specialized melee fighting type. The casters also have abysmal BAB, so they need even more stat buffs to make up for their lack of base accuracy on their attacks.

The one class here I was tempted to play was the Alchemist Metamorph though. Especially since it gets Dragon shapes in this game (as opposed to monsterous humanoid and giant shape in tabletop) It has better BAB, and doesn't need as high a casting stat so it can devote a bit more to the physical combat stats, similar to a druid.

[ManDudely]

TLDR: Just play Arcanist.

Wizards are amazing. If you know exactly what you're going to be fighting, and have time to rest and prepare accordingly. Which you never do. So you either end up picking the 'wrong' spells, or you pick 'generally good spells' and buff your group but you can never know how many casts of what spell you might need.

Sorcerers are limited to much fewer spells, but don't need to prepare each spell slot. They can cast any spell they know as long as they still have 'spell slots per day' of the level they want to cast. But you can only ever have like 4/5 spells per level, and you learn them slower than Wizards.

Arcanists are the best and worst of both, combined. They learn spells like Wizards, copying from scrolls into a spellbook, but then choose a potion of them to be cast as if they were Sorcerers. Your casting progresses at the same rate as Sorcerers, which is slightly slower than Wizards. You get both variety and flexibility, and sweet exploits on top; Potent Magic and Dimensional Slide are favorites.

If you want to play Wizard, play Arcanist instead. You'll have more fun and be more useful, and still learn every spell, without fretting over which exact slot needs what spell. If you want to play Sorcerer, play Arcanist instead. They're more likely to have useful spells, you can prepare the 'best' spells for an occasion and then swap them out completely for the next day, and you'll have more skill points. The only reason to go Sorcerer over Arcanist is if you're really set on Charisma casting, or you really want certain bloodline powers. Or you're trying to qualify for Dragon Disciple.

[Black Hammer]

Sorcs are disproportionately good in CRPGs because you only care about casting in combat, and that means you're using a small list of spells frequently. In a proper tabletop campaign, a sorcerer's limitation in spell variety is problematic and can be fatal.

Here, as long as you grab the basics (magic missile, scorching ray, fireball, haste, etc) you'll be fine.

Wizards being able to access an immense variety of utility spells, on the other hand, is mostly irrelevant in a CRPG. In a tabletop game, though, that same trait is extremely valuable.

[malkavius77]

Sorcerers have consistently been one of if not the best casters in DnD and it's offshoots like pathfinder since their inception and pretty much stayed that way.

[Kevin905niveK]

Originally posted by XartaX:

Wizards are Batman. If you know what you have to deal with and prepare accordingly, they're the best spellcaster. They can also learn every single spell, and then proceed to make scrolls out of said spells from their spellbook. So they can run around with an answer to everything in their bags.

Would you have to rest before every encounter then in order to set your spells up?

[ManDudely]

Originally posted by KhronicKracka:

Originally posted by XartaX:

Wizards are Batman. If you know what you have to deal with and prepare accordingly, they're the best spellcaster. They can also learn every single spell, and then proceed to make scrolls out of said spells from their spellbook. So they can run around with an answer to everything in their bags.

Would you have to rest before every encounter then in order to set your spells up?

Yes. Because if you know you're going to fight an Ancient Red Dragon tomorrow, you prepare different spells than if you're fighting a Lich. There's no way to get that foresight in a CRPG, aside from reloading an old save to replay a day and that just sounds tedious. On a second playthrough it might be doable, if you can remember what fights you're walking in to.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by XartaX:

Slumber hex>Coup de Grace>Sad boss

Unless he saves or is immune to enchantment/compulsion or mind-affecting spells. Or have a familiar. With a ready action to wake him up...or another minion. Or is immune to crits. The list is endless.

Slumber is a powerful tool indeed. In a CRPG too powerful, since no AI could thwart a slumber on the end boss with ease.

But if you want to unload a barrage of debuffs on a boss, a witch is your best bet with the least chance to resist. Even better than a wizard.

[XartaX]

Originally posted by KhronicKracka:

Originally posted by XartaX:

Wizards are Batman. If you know what you have to deal with and prepare accordingly, they're the best spellcaster. They can also learn every single spell, and then proceed to make scrolls out of said spells from their spellbook. So they can run around with an answer to everything in their bags.

Would you have to rest before every encounter then in order to set your spells up?

In tabletop you'd use things like divination spells and scouting to figure out what stuff you'd be facing before you engage, and thus prepare appropriately.

In a video game you can't really do those things, but you have another advantage: reloading, lol.

That said, you can just prepare the stuff that is generally good, then make scrolls for more situational... situations. Then you're always prepared no matter what.