A Plea to Owlcat

[reidj062]

Dear Owlcat...please stop with trying to make strategy/CRPG hybrids. You're not doing it well. Much like Kingmaker, the RPG aspect of this game is more or less solid. The strategy portion is soul-sucking and frustrating. Aspects of it have the potential to be enjoyable, but if you're going to trap me into an aspect of the game where I as a player make one move you don't intend and things suddenly start spiraling downward and downward, with no path at regaining control...I will absolutely forfeit half of the game, items, multiple quests and mythic paths so I have a shot at beating the game.

I will give you an example. Despite the utter lack of a tutorial of any kind on the early part of the crusade, I was able to fashion a single level 6 army. This was enough to take Drezen or Dreshen or whatever with it only getting knocked down to a level 5 army.

After I took Dreshen, then the true insanity began. Yes, I have reinforcements and more money, but it is not nearly enough. After spending a ton of cash and combining as many units as possible, I came up with a level 6 army, level 4 army, and 2 level 1s. I can't combine them any more because of the limits on different types of army units in one army, and the limitation of 3 units per army.

Since I retook Dreshen, there are about a dozen armies west of my capital, each at LEAST level 4, the highest being level 7. Every day I don't move an army in the direction the game wants, I lose 5-10 morale. Rushing the westward horde with all my units will only wipe them all out. Then I'll have to wait more days to replenish my coffers and unit replacements...but that will cause army morale to plummet, which decreases funds and recruitment.

I also do not have the time or funds to develop these "more advanced units" that I have just unlocked by taking Dreshen.

The complete analysis of the problems I found include the following:
1. Morale system, much like kingdom state in Kingmaker, is failure-heavy. There are three ranks of negative morale, a meh status, and a positive one. That provides little room for mistakes and limited reward for good management- in a game mode where, again, you do not even have a basic tutorial.
2. You need XP farming. Sounds like a dirty thing to say, but...let's assume these weren't armies but individual characters. You don't level up a level 4 party by rushing them with 12 level 4 monsters. You give them mostly CR 2s and 3, maybe as high as a 5 or 6 once in a while. So why would you treat an army vastly differently?
3. No way to protect ranged units. Multiple times I have dealt with enemy armies dancing around my frontline troops to attack weaker ranged units like archers. Every strategy war game I have ever seen provides ways to block this from happening...but I can't with the limitations of the system in this game. There's simply too much empty space and the units have too great of a movement range to protect more vulnerable units.
4. Enemy army ratings are not accurate and vary wildly in terms of difficulty.
5. Morale needs to drop less rapidly and income needs to increase. That, or simply don't put a dozen armies right on the doorstep of the place I need to defend. Or grant crusades difficulty levels from the difficulty screen.
6. No visible advantage from fortifications.
7. Enemy DR for early level enemy units is insane at times. The first gargoyle fight took me half an hour.

Just for giggles, I will try converting all my party gold to gems during my next playthrough and see if that makes any difference. I'm sure I won't need that for potions or scrolls or anything.

[DrunkPunk]

I just wish they could separate the RP stuff, like projects and dealing with stuff in the "throne room", from the actual crusade battle and management stuff. I love those RP moments, they add so much flavor, but it sucks to be shut out of them from turning off the crusade.

[Viper]

And this would just be your overly critical opinion.. I suggest you develop strategies to overcome the rules of the game instead of criticizing them. Sounds more to me like I can't play well so they don't know how to make the game to me. Most everything is based on Pathfinder . A well developed RPG System that was based on D&D.

[stars2heaven]

For me, the aspects of the game you are complaining about are about the only thing that allows this franchise to compete with other games out there that don't have them, but are better at virtually everything else. Pillars, for example. I like the kingdom management in kingmaker. Haven't gotten to the army side of things in this game yet, but I'm probably going to like it too based on what I've seen of it.

[MeldinX2]

100% agree with the OP on most things. I think the issue is the morale system. It punishes you too harshly if you let it fall too low. And makes it almost impossible to recover. Since you need more troops to keep the flags green but the low morale makes it almost impossible to get what you need. Not only that there are gamebreaking bugs that make your flag permanently red. Which causes you to lose moral without a fault from the player. And that can also lead to a negative spiral that basically ends your playthrough.

And as you said there is no good tutorials so it's up to players trial and error to figure out. Except you as a player are punished very harshly if you do make errors trying to understand how it all works.

Edit: I don't think the manegement system should be removed. I do think there is issues with the implementation. Aswell as having things bug out which is super bad in a 100+ hour RPG, losing all or alot of progress always suck.

[Corrosion]

Originally posted by reidj062:

Dear Owlcat...please stop with trying to make strategy/CRPG hybrids. You're not doing it well. Much like Kingmaker, the RPG aspect of this game is more or less solid. The strategy portion is soul-sucking and frustrating. Aspects of it have the potential to be enjoyable, but if you're going to trap me into an aspect of the game where I as a player make one move you don't intend and things suddenly start spiraling downward and downward, with no path at regaining control...I will absolutely forfeit half of the game, items, multiple quests and mythic paths so I have a shot at beating the game.

I will give you an example. Despite the utter lack of a tutorial of any kind on the early part of the crusade, I was able to fashion a single level 6 army. This was enough to take Drezen or Dreshen or whatever with it only getting knocked down to a level 5 army.

After I took Dreshen, then the true insanity began. Yes, I have reinforcements and more money, but it is not nearly enough. After spending a ton of cash and combining as many units as possible, I came up with a level 6 army, level 4 army, and 2 level 1s. I can't combine them any more because of the limits on different types of army units in one army, and the limitation of 3 units per army.

Since I retook Dreshen, there are about a dozen armies west of my capital, each at LEAST level 4, the highest being level 7. Every day I don't move an army in the direction the game wants, I lose 5-10 morale. Rushing the westward horde with all my units will only wipe them all out. Then I'll have to wait more days to replenish my coffers and unit replacements...but that will cause army morale to plummet, which decreases funds and recruitment.

I also do not have the time or funds to develop these "more advanced units" that I have just unlocked by taking Dreshen.

The complete analysis of the problems I found include the following:
1. Morale system, much like kingdom state in Kingmaker, is failure-heavy. There are three ranks of negative morale, a meh status, and a positive one. That provides little room for mistakes and limited reward for good management- in a game mode where, again, you do not even have a basic tutorial.
2. You need XP farming. Sounds like a dirty thing to say, but...let's assume these weren't armies but individual characters. You don't level up a level 4 party by rushing them with 12 level 4 monsters. You give them mostly CR 2s and 3, maybe as high as a 5 or 6 once in a while. So why would you treat an army vastly differently?
3. No way to protect ranged units. Multiple times I have dealt with enemy armies dancing around my frontline troops to attack weaker ranged units like archers. Every strategy war game I have ever seen provides ways to block this from happening...but I can't with the limitations of the system in this game. There's simply too much empty space and the units have too great of a movement range to protect more vulnerable units.
4. Enemy army ratings are not accurate and vary wildly in terms of difficulty.
5. Morale needs to drop less rapidly and income needs to increase. That, or simply don't put a dozen armies right on the doorstep of the place I need to defend. Or grant crusades difficulty levels from the difficulty screen.
6. No visible advantage from fortifications.
7. Enemy DR for early level enemy units is insane at times. The first gargoyle fight took me half an hour.

Just for giggles, I will try converting all my party gold to gems during my next playthrough and see if that makes any difference. I'm sure I won't need that for potions or scrolls or anything.

That's called being bad at managing an army. It's a different problem, with some time you might learn and, how they say it now? Git gud?

And before you say ''no, bla bla bla, i'm good at gestionals, bla bla bla'' i'm gonna say that if you are really good, choose any strategy game with a multiplayer, either turn based or not, doesn't matter, and prove it to me. Otherwise yours is just a noob rant.

[numsei]

the game is a huge success, its looks like they are on the right path, you are in the minority with this complain, just move on

[Ghost]

need a way to skip the crusade without missing out on mythic content

[Bumbo]

None of your units feel particularly impactful either, nor is it explained well what they're capable of. If you look at the information boxes you're just bombarded with a laundry list of feats that you're somehow supposed to know what mean by yourself.

On top of that there are a ton of feats you can give your units that just say <null> in the description so there's no way to tell what they do, as well as general abilities that just flat out don't work.

If you were unlucky enough to roll Lich as your mythic path, I hope you also enjoy reduced recruitment rate and a raise undead mechanic that doesn't work if your army contains undead units.

Currently the best way to deal with crusade mode is to either edit your save and give you hundreds of thousands of archers just so you can kill everything before it gets to you, or mod the game so you no longer need to bother with the battles.

[Metadigital]

Originally posted by Corrosion:

That's called being bad at managing an army. It's a different problem, with some time you might learn and, how they say it now? Git gud?

And before you say ''no, bla bla bla, i'm good at gestionals, bla bla bla'' i'm gonna say that if you are really good, choose any strategy game with a multiplayer, either turn based or not, doesn't matter, and prove it to me. Otherwise yours is just a noob rant.

Not really. I played the Heroes of Might and Magic series a ton growing up, and this ain't it chief. I see what they were going for (by "going for" I really mean "copying without shame"), but HOMM gave you alternate ways to succeed (units joining your side, artifacts, etc etc). This game just gives you one path and then punishes you more and more for an early mistake. It might qualify as challenging, I guess, but it's not particularly enjoyable, especially in a game advertised as D&D, not HOMM.

[Lightning]

Originally posted by DrunkPunk:

I just wish they could separate the RP stuff, like projects and dealing with stuff in the "throne room", from the actual crusade battle and management stuff. I love those RP moments, they add so much flavor, but it sucks to be shut out of them from turning off the crusade.

Yeah i kind of like how Pillars 1 did it with the castle you take in the beginning would've been nice if they did something like that instead but i'm really liking it anyway so far for how it is

[Corrosion]

Originally posted by Metadigital:

Originally posted by Corrosion:

That's called being bad at managing an army. It's a different problem, with some time you might learn and, how they say it now? Git gud?

And before you say ''no, bla bla bla, i'm good at gestionals, bla bla bla'' i'm gonna say that if you are really good, choose any strategy game with a multiplayer, either turn based or not, doesn't matter, and prove it to me. Otherwise yours is just a noob rant.

Not really. I played the Heroes of Might and Magic series a ton growing up, and this ain't it chief. I see what they were going for (by "going for" I really mean "copying without shame"), but HOMM gave you alternate ways to succeed (units joining your side, artifacts, etc etc). This game just gives you one path and then punishes you more and more for an early mistake. It might qualify as challenging, I guess, but it's not particularly enjoyable, especially in a game advertised as D&D, not HOMM.

It's not enjoyable only if you're a casual gamer. Again, prove it to me that i'm wrong about you complainers not being bad at strategy or keep silent.

[Deus Vult]

I agree with you, this ''MINI-GAME'' is absolutely worthless. It would work much better if the battles where a simple roadblock for the party where you fight it normally. For now I recommend modifying your saves and making an OP army. Nothing better than 3k hellnights and 3k archers steamrolling everything.

[Mathalis]

Originally posted by numsei:

the game is a huge success, its looks like they are on the right path, you are in the minority with this complain, just move on

Just because you don't agree does not mean that he is in the minority. It its current state the crusade system is a nightmare with no tutorial at all. I feel like I need to restart all of Act 2 just because of the crusade system. I took a level 4 Army into a level 2 node and was wiped out because the mobs that spawned only took magic damage. Well, you don't get any magic damage at that level. It's archers and troopers. How the hell was I supposed to know before I pushed my army there? It's not well implemented.

[The Silver Santana]

Originally posted by Corrosion:

That's called being bad at managing an army. It's a different problem, with some time you might learn and, how they say it now? Git gud?

And before you say ''no, bla bla bla, i'm good at gestionals, bla bla bla'' i'm gonna say that if you are really good, choose any strategy game with a multiplayer, either turn based or not, doesn't matter, and prove it to me. Otherwise yours is just a noob rant.

To interject for OP: I have played HOMM, Warcraft 3, company of war, warhammer strategy games from battlefleet gothic to whatever their RTS is called, the paradox series of games, a wide variety of others...

And the strategy and tactics of this games crusade are hilariously broken, with no compare, making it among the most difficult with no justification of the difficulty. It has none of the charm of any of those games, and every problem of all of them distilled.

It is a broken, nigh unplayable mess. It's frustrating because it has potential, but they butchered it wildly.

[Frostfeather]

I have to agree on the whole, if only because they could redirect resources to any of the main aspects of the game. And all the main aspects of the game could use some improvement.