Lawful good lich? Possible?

[Soldarc]

Can i become a lich as a lawfull good character? and if yes. Can i do all the lich stuff and still be lawfull good or do i need to aligment change to open up some powers/quests?

[SIlverblade-T-E]

Originally posted by Angry Trash:

Sadly it doesn't seem like Archliches are in pathfinder

yeah they were one of the interesting creature types in Spelljammer :)

the Devs really should considering using WITCHLIGHT MARAUDERS in this game...
just saying....!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

[Comuse]

necromancy is inherently chaotic evil, same with lichdom. they require you to mutilate or totally obliterate the souls of the dead respectively and both completely upend the natural laws of the multiverse. sure a neutral/chaotic good character could theoretically become a lich after a certain godzilla threshold was crossed (like, say, some cult is in the process of successfully freeing the rough beast and you need the extra lifetimes to stop it or the entire multiverse will be eaten), but a lawful good character objectively will never do that.

theoretically a lich could, over time, become good if they find a way to sustain themselves without devouring souls (no alignment is locked in stone, there is even a city in pandemonium where outsiders, who are the physical manifestations of their alignment, have changed their alignment), but the process of becoming a lich will turn you evil unless you are in unimaginably dire circumstances.

[hermetic_magi]

Originally posted by Soldarc:

Originally posted by Aunt Tony:

Ah yes. Of course.

The famous roleplay scenario in which you completely ignore all morals, ethics, logic and definitions of words in order to destroy the most fundamental premise of the game setting's metaphysical cosmology, history and lore.

There are good aligned high elf liches in DnD.. espessially in Ebberon.. So the concept works.. I have not read all the lore of Pathfinder though, so the it might go against specific lich lore there... But powers are not inherantly good nor evil.. it depends on how you use them and to what end.

In Pathfinder, there are powers that are inherently good and evil. This is not D&D 5e.

[Corviknight_]

Originally posted by Kurosu:

Some mythic paths require you to change your alligment in order to progress. I believe Lich is one of them .

Lawfull Good and lich are kind of a contradiction to be honest.

There is good liches at Forgotten Realms. = P

[whitegoat]

Liches manipulate negative energy at the highest level.
In DnD (3.5) negative energy manipulation is inherently an evil act; this is not up for debate, it is stated in the rules.
Back in ADnD, the "complete necromancer's handbook" made a point of necromancy not being inherently evil but instead suggested it is a matter of intent; necromancy was divided into "white" "grey" and "black".
From 3rd edition onwards this approach was abandoned, making all negative energy usage an inherently evil act.
Pathfinder seems to be a bit vague on the subject, since the negative energy plane is "neutral" iirc.
So if you go by DnD lore, then a lich is evil, no way around it; constant link to and channeling negative energy will turn you evil even if you did not start as such.

[Soldarc]

Originally posted by whitegoat:

Liches manipulate negative energy at the highest level.
In DnD (3.5) negative energy manipulation is inherently an evil act; this is not up for debate, it is stated in the rules.
Back in ADnD, the "complete necromancer's handbook" made a point of necromancy not being inherently evil but instead suggested it is a matter of intent; necromancy was divided into "white" "grey" and "black".
From 3rd edition onwards this approach was abandoned, making all negative energy usage an inherently evil act.
Pathfinder seems to be a bit vague on the subject, since the negative energy plane is "neutral" iirc.
So if you go by DnD lore, then a lich is evil, no way around it; constant link to and channeling negative energy will turn you evil even if you did not start as such.

Do you even play DnD? https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Archlich

[RocketMan]

Originally posted by Soldarc:

Originally posted by whitegoat:

Liches manipulate negative energy at the highest level.
In DnD (3.5) negative energy manipulation is inherently an evil act; this is not up for debate, it is stated in the rules.
Back in ADnD, the "complete necromancer's handbook" made a point of necromancy not being inherently evil but instead suggested it is a matter of intent; necromancy was divided into "white" "grey" and "black".
From 3rd edition onwards this approach was abandoned, making all negative energy usage an inherently evil act.
Pathfinder seems to be a bit vague on the subject, since the negative energy plane is "neutral" iirc.
So if you go by DnD lore, then a lich is evil, no way around it; constant link to and channeling negative energy will turn you evil even if you did not start as such.

Do you even play DnD? https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Archlich

Basically in dnd rule of cool always wins out over what's canon.

You want a good lich? Hell it doesn't even have to be an arch lich. If it fits your story it's canon for you and your group.

A good author can always think up of a variant or a reasoning for why there may be an exception to a rule.

Hell larian made a whole new breed of mindflayer just for their story, and it's canon because of wotc's backing. If they can do it, so can you.

[Soldarc]

Originally posted by Mail me to the Moon:

Originally posted by Soldarc:

Do you even play DnD? https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Archlich

Basically in dnd rule of cool always wins out over what's canon.

You want a good lich? Hell it doesn't even have to be an arch lich. If it fits your story it's canon for you and your group.

A good author can always think up of a variant or a reasoning for why there may be an exception to a rule.

Hell larian made a whole new breed of mindflayer just for their story, and it's canon because of wotc's backing. If they can do it, so can you.

Right now im playing a Lawfull good Lich in WotR. Though everyone thinks it is evil and tries to make me repent...

[Heal These Idiots™]

"BOHOOO I WANNA PLAY LAWFUL GOOD LICH"
♥♥♥♥♥, YOU LITERALLY RAISE DEAD AGAINST THEIR WILL, YOUR WHOLE EXISTENCE IS CRIME AGAINST NATURE, YOUR MAGIC IS FOUL, BUT NO, YOU ARE DERANGED SCHIZO WHO THINKS HE IS GOOD.

Whats next? Evil Angel? Lawful Azata? Good Liches and their fans suck.

[LordBlade]

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

If your argument is "human sacrifice isn't evil if you do it the right way" you might be evil.

I mean, if they're on death row anyway... does it matter if they go to the chopping block or the sacrifice chamber?

[SIlverblade-T-E]

Archliches are EXTREMELY rare and usually required the actions of a god or such (see Myth Drannor)
and no they would NOT go raising the undead which is usually an inherently evil act,
it is NOT like making a golem, but is cursing a soul or body

An Archlich making use of existing undead is another matter especially if they are sentient and share an allied purpose, ie, like in Myth Drannor f
Folk killed by the demon army that over ran the city sometimes couldn't find rest and some worked with the archlich there to guard the place, others were just too insane or evil though

An archlich sacrifices their normal progression to afterlife in the Heavens etc, to protect their people or some such goal
It's not merely to "live forever and have power!" and still risks their soul as they can do evil acts
ie, raise undead to protect their people would be a malign act

In D&D lore, anyone who doubts this should recall that *ORCUS* is the creator of liches and master of the undead who wants all life extinguished
The undead are with few exceptions, malignant and creating them requires terrible events or the most vile magic

[RocketMan]

Originally posted by SIlverblade-T-E:

Archliches are EXTREMELY rare and usually required the actions of a god or such (see Myth Drannor)
and no they would NOT go raising the undead which is usually an inherently evil act,
it is NOT like making a golem, but is cursing a soul or body

An Archlich making use of existing undead is another matter especially if they are sentient and share an allied purpose, ie, like in Myth Drannor f
Folk killed by the demon army that over ran the city sometimes couldn't find rest and some worked with the archlich there to guard the place, others were just too insane or evil though

An archlich sacrifices their normal progression to afterlife in the Heavens etc, to protect their people or some such goal
It's not merely to "live forever and have power!" and still risks their soul as they can do evil acts
ie, raise undead to protect their people would be a malign act

In D&D lore, anyone who doubts this should recall that *ORCUS* is the creator of liches and master of the undead who wants all life extinguished
The undead are with few exceptions, malignant and creating them requires terrible events or the most vile magic

ALso consider that ravnica is canon in DnD

What you're thinking of is the setting. Not dnd as a whole.

[XartaX]

Originally posted by edmek55555:

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

In universe becoming a lich requires a lot of human sacrifice.

Lich isn't the same as Necromancer.

Same logic applies. I sacrifice a bunch of murderers and low lifes in order to gain the power necessary to effectively fight for my altruistic purpose. Making things like that black and white is sort of just the writers imposing their own personal opinions into the lore. Which is totally their right, but being a lich isn't necessarily evil thing whichever way you spin it. In pathfinder it is evil because that is the rule. That's pretty much it

In pathfinder/D&D good and evil aren't subjective concepts. They're tangible things. In these worlds, something is OBJECTIVELY evil/good. Here, good and evil aren't just "things I find morally desirable/repugnant".

[Tregon]

Originally posted by LordBlade:

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

If your argument is "human sacrifice isn't evil if you do it the right way" you might be evil.

I mean, if they're on death row anyway... does it matter if they go to the chopping block or the sacrifice chamber?

It is not that you just kill them. In sacrifices, their soul is involved as well. Execution just tosses people to their destined outer world for rest of eternity.

Sacrifice uses up/imprisons the soul to deny that journey.

For example, when making sacrifice of innocent for devils/demons, that soul goes to be plaything of that creature instead of heading to appropriate good/neutral outer realm.
For lich, sacrifice is about using those souls to enable lich to become immortal and relocate his/her soul into phylactery.

So it is not just act of taking life, it is act of taking life AND soul.

[BrUwU]

Originally posted by Heal These Idiots™:

Evil Angel?

Lucifer?