Tavern defense

[Chris]

So im playing on hard with no issues but it would be nice if i could level up a bit for the tavern defense and im wondering how much time i have before the fight.Im still level3....also the fight takes ages in turn based mode which is my favorite so any tips?

[Draken]

You have 3 days.
It's possible to to most if not all of the available content.
Edit: May be not possible on harder difficulties.
You can actually skip the tavern fight if you are fast enough and use the fact that picking up a certain character instantly returns you to the tavern.

[Northern]

To make this fight easier, use greese on 2 enter points and ladder.

Also, fight clearly designed for rtwp. I also prefer TB but it wise to turn real time for massive battles, turn-based simply not designed to simulate 20 characters.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Draken:

You have 3 days.
It's possible to to most if not all of the available content.
You can actually skip the tavern fight if you are fast enough and use the fact that picking up a certain character instantly returns you to the tavern.

A guard told me to go back and im already in the tavern so i guess i have to fight

[Chris]

Originally posted by Northern:

To make this fight easier, use greese on 2 enter points and ladder.

Also, fight clearly designed for rtwp. I also prefer TB but it wise to turn real time for massive battles, turn-based simply not designed to simulate 20 characters.

The rest is good designed for tb but this fight spec. looks more like a rtwp one

[Mordred Morghul]

Cheese it. Go out, do all the quests, rest as much as you need. Get all the XP you can. Always save on the map/before you rest at the tavern. If you get the messenger event from resting at the tavern or on the map as a random encounter, reload. It will not happen again for a little while longer. Keep delaying the event in this way. That is how I got to level 5 before doing it.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Chris:

im wondering how much time i have before the fight.Im still level3..

You have three days game time before this fight triggers. On hard this fight is virtually impossible at L3. If you switch to TB it might be since TB is so much easier, but on hard I still think it would be very, very difficult at L3. Even at L4 the fight is very difficult on hard. CohnCarnage is doing a current LP on hard and he took about six attempts to beat it at L4 on hard.

I got caught by this fight on hard at L3 on my first beta run back in February and I tried about 25 times without success. Eventually, I gave up and switched to normal and just managed to squeak it after three further attempts and by that time I knew how the battle is scripted like the back of my hand..

L5 is where you want to be on hard for this fight which means you must manage your time well and avoid all rests wherever possible. You should be able to clear the market square on one rest and that will get you to L4 in about one day. I would save scum battles that go badly wrong to achieve this if necessary to conserve resources for this endeavor. Once you've done that you should be able to complete the remaining side quests to flip L5 reasonably easily. IIRC from my last beta run the XP from them adds up to the L5 flip fairly exactly.

This is one reason I like to play a 2H Bloodrager Primalist. It makes long killing sprees without resting a lot easier.

[Samhain34]

Originally posted by Mordred Morghul:

Cheese it. Go out, do all the quests, rest as much as you need. Get all the XP you can. Always save on the map/before you rest at the tavern. If you get the messenger event from resting at the tavern or on the map as a random encounter, reload. It will not happen again for a little while longer. Keep delaying the event in this way. That is how I got to level 5 before doing it.

This is the best advice I've seen regarding leveling up before this fight. Though it seems tuned for a level 4 party on normal difficulty.

[tynian87116]

Tips:

First and foremost, the timer for the DH siege is tied to an event following the rescue at Blackwing. Talking to the specific person at DH starts the timer. You can, if you want to, go through a lion's share of the optional areas without going there or going there/saving said person and just NOT talking to them until you've finished everything else.

My typical route is to:

1. Talk to everyone in DH to get all the optional areas unlocked.

2. Free Woljif and do his quest to get Finnean.

3. Go to Market Square and do everything there up to dealing with Hulrun/Ramien. Meaning complete their part of the story to the point of Hulrun backing off or one of them being dead. Get the Terendelev related quest under Burning City ticked after sorting them out.

This also means saving everyone and visiting the optional houses/finishing the Vrock ritual to kill it, sending the mongrels back to wait for battle, recruiting the person that's got some... macabre history with the inquisition. The Vrock is triggered in the house around that poor girl. Gotta go in there and find the hidden room/finish the ritual to trigger it, you can get some nice equipment from the soldiers it kills and I think it gives a decent amount of XP. Keep in mind that the battle isn't a walk in the park if you're not kitted right. Best suggestion is to either respec your main to something that's good against demons or hire a mercenary that's a Ranger Demonslayer or something similar to get an edge in the battle if you're having issues with it. This is why I get Finnean first, having him makes it easy to equip your main with something that can actually deal some damage to demons.

4. Get Daeran and progress the Ilkes quest while there.

5. Go to Tower of Estrod, save, then kill the demons. Have a skill monkey that's good with mobility/athletics/stealth take the jump to the right ledge sneak down and push the right pillar into the demons then sneak back up and get back to the center area/move the main party down the ramp back into the hallway and then have the skill monkey stealth along the left edge/pass the check to climb the ladder and put them in front of the second pillar. Prep your troops/buff them/park the archers along the edge so they're ready for some sniping and position melee/tank past the pillar, push the pillar down to take some more troops out and wipe the rest. After this go to the basement to get the keys from the old guy and loot every nook and cranny of the basement as there's a nice Longbow that works good with Lann and a really nice armor down there for your main or Camelia.

6. Get all the optional areas making Topaz the next priority to get a nice light crossbow that goes good with Dearan since it has a great enchant for Oracle's.

7. After all that you should have some new levels and decent gear to boot, then it's safe to go take care of Blackwing. I do this last because there's a few quests that'll become unavailable if you save him/move him to DH first.

8. Get everyone I plan to use kitted for the upcoming battle/buff them with a hearty meal or the spicy meal for an okay buff, then after prepping everyone talk to the Elf to update the quest including turning in the thing you discovered during the Terendelev part of the quest. This is where the timer starts, note it doesn't give you a fresh 3 days, it only checks the time/date to see if you're past the time required for the assault and if you are once you rest the messenger will come to tell you to get back to DH.

For the battle:

It's tempting to go turn based, but not practical, there are waaaaay too many turns involved. If you want a turn based-esque feel abuse that Shift+Space tactical pause goodness.

It's tempting to send your ranged troops to the roofs and your main dealers to the first gate attacked during the first wave, don't. Keep your ranged units towards the middle of the map, doesn't make that much sense but, that helps keep you from having to shift focus to them later. Send a tank/dps towards the gate, if you have another dps that's tanky send them up the stairs opposite DH along the roofs. Just keep them in the middle. Your main goal for all waves should always ever be Arsonists>Netch>melee troops. The key is taking out those arsonists in the first and second waves, any non netch melee coming through the gates will get sorted out by the other defenders. Also, remember, Trip is your friend... Abuse it. If you've leveled up Seelah, I suggest speccing her as animal companion Pally and get her the Tower Shield/a good one handed melee weapon/Half-Plate Armor. Get her mounted before having her charge as the added mobility can REALLY help out.

Also, if you have a dedicated Ranger with Longbow specialization it's worth it to get them a Mastodon with boon companion so you can mount them... There's a reason Napoleon used elephants and archers, it's damned effective and gives you an extra tank so you can focus on lining up the shots with the nice Line of Sight boost. The reason you want to park a DPS on the wall is there are a few Arsonists that spawn in there.

For the second wave shift fire support to focus on the roofs, might need to micro-manage a little here. The melee troops that start spawning there are not your basic Neophytes and can wipe your wall archers with the quickness. It's at this time that you should grease the ELF (Ever Living Fark) out of the unbroken gate so that when the final wave starts you have some time. I would suggest keeping Seelah off of the wall as you're going to want her at the top of her game for the final wave.

Final wave: Send DPS and Tank to the gate. Focus most of your ranged at this gate but keep one caster/DPS free if possible to attend to any arsonists that might spawn on the opposite gate. IIRC there are one or two. It's tempting to kill the minotaur first, but I strongly recommend taking out the Arsonists first as the minotaur, though tough, isn't as much a threat as them.

Doing the above netted me a win with minimal losses. Biggest thing is, this isn't just another encounter, it's a proper seige and as such, keeping that in mind can help you approach it with the right tactical mindset.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by tynian87116:

Tips:

First and foremost, the timer for the DH siege is tied to an event following the rescue at Blackwing. Talking to the specific person at DH starts the timer.

Could you:

a) be a bit more specific about what exactly you mean by that
b) also explain why you are sure about it

I only ask this because I have never heard this before and everyone on the alpha/beta forums, Discord etc, is convinced it's either three rests or three days after leaving Defender's Heart to explore the city, a view which is born out by my own experience.

Originally posted by tynian87116:

Tips:
finishing the Vrock ritual to kill it,

I would not actually recommend this.

The Vrok is worth 60XP and doesn't drop anything of note. It is extraordinarily difficult to kill because it opens with a mass stun, follows that with a mass poison and then sets about your party with massive sneak attacks that it can hardly miss. You are not going to able top defend against that at L3/4. The one time I summoned it I couldn't kill it at L3 and going back for it at L5 I could only do so by getting Ember to Slumber it and by that time my MC was strong enough to one shot it with a Coup de Grace. It's basically a damn nuisance and nasty loose end.

[Radashar]

Absolutely loved the fight on turn-based, but aye it's a long one. ~35 or so first time I beat it, 28 the second (since bug wiped my game and I had to re-do).

If you've got an arcane caster and create pits, grease, the big daddy scroll of Acid Pit, it's cake. Acid Pit took so many evil cultists' lives for zero effort.

I noticed that the gate destruction is not always the same. First time entire gate got blown down, second only a crack in the middle one unit could come through. Dropped pits in front of that and just laughed off the fight.

[Syiss]

Originally posted by tynian87116:

Tips:

First and foremost, the timer for the DH siege is tied to an event following the rescue at Blackwing. Talking to the specific person at DH starts the timer. You can, if you want to, go through a lion's share of the optional areas without going there or going there/saving said person and just NOT talking to them until you've finished everything else.

This is not accurate. In fact you get different interactions in Blackwing depending on if you go there before or after the siege. I can personally attest to this, as I just played through this part yesterday and got the siege trigger before I even went to Blackwing at all.

As I think another person mentioned already, there is a 3 day timer for the siege. Apparently per another posted you can extend this a bit with some save scumming, but I haven't tested that myself

For OP, if you want to go back and re-do it, here is a guide you can use for those three days. It should get you to at least level 4-5 if you follow it. It also makes sure you complete any time sensitive things prior to going to the siege (there is one really important one, as you can lose access to a potential companion permanently if you don't do it before the siege, the other "time sensitive" tasks just make the battle at the Garrison a bit easier later on).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/pghsgm/spoilers_simplified_act_1_walkthrough_spoilers/

If you want to try to stick it out at level 3, grease is amazing. Woljif should have it to begin with, I think Nenion can probably learn it as well, and there is almost definitely a few you can buy off the scroll vendor. It's not even funny how trivial grease can make some fights. I didn't try Create Pit or Acid Pit, but I expect they are also quite effective.

[RocketMan]

Originally posted by Syiss:

Originally posted by tynian87116:

Tips:

First and foremost, the timer for the DH siege is tied to an event following the rescue at Blackwing. Talking to the specific person at DH starts the timer. You can, if you want to, go through a lion's share of the optional areas without going there or going there/saving said person and just NOT talking to them until you've finished everything else.

This is not accurate. In fact you get different interactions in Blackwing depending on if you go there before or after the siege. I can personally attest to this, as I just played through this part yesterday and got the siege trigger before I even went to Blackwing at all.

As I think another person mentioned already, there is a 3 day timer for the siege. Apparently per another posted you can extend this a bit with some save scumming, but I haven't tested that myself

For OP, if you want to go back and re-do it, here is a guide you can use for those three days. It should get you to at least level 4-5 if you follow it. It also makes sure you complete any time sensitive things prior to going to the siege (there is one really important one, as you can lose access to a potential companion permanently if you don't do it before the siege, the other "time sensitive" tasks just make the battle at the Garrison a bit easier later on).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/pghsgm/spoilers_simplified_act_1_walkthrough_spoilers/

If you want to try to stick it out at level 3, grease is amazing. Woljif should have it to begin with, I think Nenion can probably learn it as well, and there is almost definitely a few you can buy off the scroll vendor. It's not even funny how trivial grease can make some fights. I didn't try Create Pit or Acid Pit, but I expect they are also quite effective.

he said talking to a certain person in DH starts the timer. Not that going to the library starts it.

[lubed_assassin]

Originally posted by Mordred Morghul:

Cheese it. Go out, do all the quests, rest as much as you need. Get all the XP you can. Always save on the map/before you rest at the tavern. If you get the messenger event from resting at the tavern or on the map as a random encounter, reload. It will not happen again for a little while longer. Keep delaying the event in this way. That is how I got to level 5 before doing it.

Yeah I was using sickening entanglement and just murdering everything. Funny enough the minotaur who breaks the gate is triggered by aggro and not scripted to attack, so if you stack top or east he just stands there after he breaks the wall down.

[Chris]

I already won the fight it took 1 and a half hour in turn based mode lol feels good if you know its on hard

[SpiralRazor]

Originally posted by Northern:

To make this fight easier, use greese on 2 enter points and ladder.

Also, fight clearly designed for rtwp. I also prefer TB but it wise to turn real time for massive battles, turn-based simply not designed to simulate 20 characters.

Its fine, just turn up the animation speeds to suit.