Suggestion: Better Evil Choices

[jdpvagabond]

I threw in the towel and restarted my campaign to follow a more 'good' aligned path. Evil in this game is hilariously bad. You become little more than a mindless murder hobo, which is entirely boring from a player perspective and even by standard story writing.

I know we're likely not going to get any tweaks in that department for the current play through but please, for the love of God, give us something a little more in depth other than the maim-kill-burn evil motivations in the future.

[hermetic_magi]

Escrito originalmente por Mail me to the Moon:

Escrito originalmente por hermetic_magi:

There are TONS of "Lawful" choices that are evil. They just have the Lawful tag rather than evil. I mean downright d-bag moves.

The lawful choices were often done well. And they tend to trend kinda evil.

But, as per your earlier logic, "That isn't evil, that's lawful"

There still isn't a whole ton of role play options on the lawful evil side, let alone actual evil dialogue choices of such.

Dude, you're way too caught up on the tags. Maybe your version of evil is just more Lawful than evil.

[RocketMan]

Escrito originalmente por hermetic_magi:

Escrito originalmente por Mail me to the Moon:

The lawful choices were often done well. And they tend to trend kinda evil.

But, as per your earlier logic, "That isn't evil, that's lawful"

There still isn't a whole ton of role play options on the lawful evil side, let alone actual evil dialogue choices of such.

Dude, you're way too caught up on the tags. Maybe your version of evil is just more Lawful than evil.

Oh I'm only focusing on the tags now to make fun of ya earlier comments.

[NixAhmose]

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

so there's a lot of chaotic dumb(evil) choices but very little lawful evil(best evil btw)?

No, there's plenty of ways to be lawful evil, there's just not a tag for it specifically.

From what I understand, actions that are mostly good get put in the good category, actions that are mostly lawful get put in the lawful category, actions that are mostly chaotic get put in the chaotic category, and actions that are mostly evil get put into the evil category. There is no dual alignment choices.

Now I believe the reason for that is that Owlcat wants players to feel more free in regards to what alignment choices they pick. Instead of labeling something as "lawful evil" or "lawful good", its labeled as just "lawful" so that players who are lawful good, lawful neutral, or lawful evil can feel more free to pick that option if that's what they think best fits their character without worrying that its pushing their character too far in the wrong direction. However, the "downside" if you call it that is that all the evil and good labeled actions are mostly just the pure extremes of those alignments. So if you're a player who plays by Mass Effect logic and only pick choices based on their label rather than content, your evil character is going to be pretty cartoonishly evil.

[pasta]

Escrito originalmente por NixAhmose:

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

so there's a lot of chaotic dumb(evil) choices but very little lawful evil(best evil btw)?

No, there's plenty of ways to be lawful evil, there's just not a tag for it specifically.

From what I understand, actions that are mostly good get put in the good category, actions that are mostly lawful get put in the lawful category, actions that are mostly chaotic get put in the chaotic category, and actions that are mostly evil get put into the evil category. There is no dual alignment choices.

Now I believe the reason for that is that Owlcat wants players to feel more free in regards to what alignment choices they pick. Instead of labeling something as "lawful evil" or "lawful good", its labeled as just "lawful" so that players who are lawful good, lawful neutral, or lawful evil can feel more free to pick that option if that's what they think best fits their character without worrying that its pushing their character too far in the wrong direction. However, the "downside" if you call it that is that all the evil and good labeled actions are mostly just the pure extremes of those alignments. So if you're a player who plays by Mass Effect logic and only pick choices based on their label rather than content, your evil character is going to be pretty cartoonishly evil.

but then the line between a zealot and a scheming dictator are blurred. what's the point of even having all the alignment choices if they all fall under lawful, good, or evil? you wouldn't play a lawful zealot who judge dredd's anyone who commits a sinful act the same way you'd play someone who uses laws to commit evil acts and get away with it. at least not in tabletop.

[Nerivant]

Escrito originalmente por NixAhmose:

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

so there's a lot of chaotic dumb(evil) choices but very little lawful evil(best evil btw)?

No, there's plenty of ways to be lawful evil, there's just not a tag for it specifically.

From what I understand, actions that are mostly good get put in the good category, actions that are mostly lawful get put in the lawful category, actions that are mostly chaotic get put in the chaotic category, and actions that are mostly evil get put into the evil category. There is no dual alignment choices.

Now I believe the reason for that is that Owlcat wants players to feel more free in regards to what alignment choices they pick. Instead of labeling something as "lawful evil" or "lawful good", its labeled as just "lawful" so that players who are lawful good, lawful neutral, or lawful evil can feel more free to pick that option if that's what they think best fits their character without worrying that its pushing their character too far in the wrong direction. However, the "downside" if you call it that is that all the evil and good labeled actions are mostly just the pure extremes of those alignments. So if you're a player who plays by Mass Effect logic and only pick choices based on their label rather than content, your evil character is going to be pretty cartoonishly evil.

That's why I'd just use the option to turn tags off, pick the options which make sense to you and your character, watch the alignment play out naturally rather than picking based on tag. Have a lawful neutral demon atm whose very close to evil just by picking options that made sense to his character and I wouldn't call anything he did cartoonish besides maybe smacking someone who didnt really need smacking but hey, demon rage.

[hermetic_magi]

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

Escrito originalmente por NixAhmose:

No, there's plenty of ways to be lawful evil, there's just not a tag for it specifically.

From what I understand, actions that are mostly good get put in the good category, actions that are mostly lawful get put in the lawful category, actions that are mostly chaotic get put in the chaotic category, and actions that are mostly evil get put into the evil category. There is no dual alignment choices.

Now I believe the reason for that is that Owlcat wants players to feel more free in regards to what alignment choices they pick. Instead of labeling something as "lawful evil" or "lawful good", its labeled as just "lawful" so that players who are lawful good, lawful neutral, or lawful evil can feel more free to pick that option if that's what they think best fits their character without worrying that its pushing their character too far in the wrong direction. However, the "downside" if you call it that is that all the evil and good labeled actions are mostly just the pure extremes of those alignments. So if you're a player who plays by Mass Effect logic and only pick choices based on their label rather than content, your evil character is going to be pretty cartoonishly evil.

but then the line between a zealot and a scheming dictator are blurred. what's the point of even having all the alignment choices if they all fall under lawful, good, or evil? you wouldn't play a lawful zealot who judge dredd's anyone who commits a sinful act the same way you'd follow someone who uses laws to commit evil acts and get away with it. at least not in tabletop.

They fall under:
Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic

Neutral responses have no tag. Each response is given weight to whatever one is the highest value.

[pasta]

Escrito originalmente por hermetic_magi:

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

but then the line between a zealot and a scheming dictator are blurred. what's the point of even having all the alignment choices if they all fall under lawful, good, or evil? you wouldn't play a lawful zealot who judge dredd's anyone who commits a sinful act the same way you'd follow someone who uses laws to commit evil acts and get away with it. at least not in tabletop.

They fall under:
Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic

Neutral responses have no tag. Each response is given weight to whatever one is the highest value.

yes, but the complaint is that lawful evil for example is very different from chaotic evil and that isn't properly applied in game.

[hermetic_magi]

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

Escrito originalmente por hermetic_magi:

They fall under:
Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic

Neutral responses have no tag. Each response is given weight to whatever one is the highest value.

yes, but the complaint is that lawful evil for example is very different from chaotic evil and that isn't properly applied in game.

My counter to that is that you can be Lawful evil just fine, your choices just tend to be more Lawful than evil.

[NixAhmose]

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

but then the line between a zealot and a scheming dictator are blurred. what's the point of even having all the alignment choices if they all fall under lawful, good, or evil? you wouldn't play a lawful zealot who judge dredd's anyone who commits a sinful act the same way you'd follow someone who uses laws to commit evil acts and get away with it. at least not in tabletop.

What are you talking about? There is still a difference, it literally still alters you're alignment. Its just more flexible than in Kingmaker. If you just follow the law by the book, regardless of its effects, its going to be considered lawful as you're mainly fulfilling a lawful act. If you use the law to specifically commit a evil act or submit a overly cruel punishment, its going to be labeled as evil because you're mainly fulfilling a evil act.

The issue with labeling things dual alignments is because, believe or not, alignments are very subjective and it was big criticism with Kingmaker how certain actions were label a specific dual alignment even though other could easily argue it fit other alignment types as well. Morality in and of itself is highly subjective, so trying label objective moral classifications while trying to make the player feel like they can play as a nuanced character if they want to is next to impossible. There's always going to be some flaw when representing alignments in a video game setting, which is why most games either cut it out completely or reduce it to a binary good vs evil system. And presumably from Owlcat's perspective in regards to this game, its better to have the player be given too much freedom to interpret their character's alignment and make naunced characters than it is to restrict the player's freedom and force them to make one-dimensional cutouts if they want to keep their alignment,

[NixAhmose]

Escrito originalmente por pasta:

yes, but the complaint is that lawful evil for example is very different from chaotic evil and that isn't properly applied in game.

But it is applied in the game. If you're a lawful evil character, you mostly pick lawful or evil actions rather than good or chaotic actions.

[Lord Doober De La Goober MXI]

Evil choices always fall flat most of the time when alignments are involved.

I want to do the evil thing because I want to get a better thing than what the good thing gives, not just to kill one extra thing and MISS OUT on the good thing.

[KharnFlakes]

My main problem comes with every lawful evil choices for example involves "Give me money i wont hurt you", so basically the choices are Yes i'll help you (good), no i'll murder you (evil), PAY ME (everything else). Like seriously, why not somethnig original, instead of being a greedy ♥♥♥♥.

[NixAhmose]

Escrito originalmente por H1dan:

My main problem comes with every lawful evil choices for example involves "Give me money i wont hurt you", so basically the choices are Yes i'll help you (good), no i'll murder you (evil), PAY ME (everything else). Like seriously, why not somethnig original, instead of being a greedy ♥♥♥♥.

So what option would you want?

[KharnFlakes]

Escrito originalmente por NixAhmose:

Escrito originalmente por H1dan:

My main problem comes with every lawful evil choices for example involves "Give me money i wont hurt you", so basically the choices are Yes i'll help you (good), no i'll murder you (evil), PAY ME (everything else). Like seriously, why not somethnig original, instead of being a greedy ♥♥♥♥.

So what option would you want?

Manipulation, lies, deception, enforcement. I wont kill you but you are mine now and when the time comes i'll call for you, and you better come. It surely bland to see cliche evil, it's rare if the guy is evil but he dont want to kill everyitng because he is not chaotic, he is more lawful. I know there is chocies later in the game that get you that feeling but, its a minority. Clear cliche good and clear cliche evil prevail most of the time, I know being lawful evil can be like "i want that money and you will not die", but not every time. Its literally like that.

[NixAhmose]

Escrito originalmente por H1dan:

Escrito originalmente por NixAhmose:

So what option would you want?

Manipulation, lies, deception, enforcement. I wont kill you but you are mine now and when the time comes i'll call for you, and you better come. It surely bland to see cliche evil, it's rare if the guy is evil but he dont want to kill everyitng because he is not chaotic, he is more lawful. I know there is chocies later in the game that get you that feeling but, its a minority. Clear cliche good and clear cliche evil prevail most of the time, I know being lawful evil can be like "i want that money and you will not die", but not every time. Its literally like that.

So instead of cliche evil and uncaring/greedy evil you want mustache twirling evil?