Experts: Witch or Sorcerer w/ Undead Bloodline for Lich Path?

[Homer Morisson]

As so many of us, I'm still in the process of nailing down my first build, and since the most recent beta update added the ability for Witches to merge spellbooks with Lich, I'm once again torn.

I've actually never played Witch before, but I'm very intrigued by the Hexes, as they seem a hell of a lot more useful than Cantrips and seem to be almost as always-castable.

So, dear Tabletop and otherwise Pathfinder-experts:
In your own opinion, which would be the overall better Offensive Caster with a side of Crowd Control build for Lich Path,

1) Sorcerer w/ Undead Bloodline

or

2) Witch (does Patron choice matter much here?)

for going Lich Caster w/ Merged Spellbooks?

[krwr12]

İlk olarak ToveriJuri tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak krwr12 tarafından gönderildi:

Wizard is always better than sorc. Besides, undead bloodline features would be mostly redundant with the lich path.

In what universe is wizard always better than Sorc in a video game like this? In tabletop maybe. But for a player who is familiar with a game like this. I don't see how wizard would be better. Someone who knows what spells to prioritize will benefit more from spontaneous casting and more spell uses per day than versatility provided by the wizard.

That's the point, sorcerers trade the wizard's versatility for a slightly increased damage. While wizards stay highly valuable in all of battle situations, sorcerers can easily start to be carried around as a dead weight, doing nothing.

[Homer Morisson]

İlk olarak Daddy tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Homer Morisson tarafından gönderildi:

I was also considering using the Abyss Bloodline for its Augemented Summoning feat... that should also buff my undead minions, right?

Undead don´t count as summons so they don´t benefit from augmented summoning or anything that gives bonuses to summons unless is specifically mentions undead. This is because technically you raise undead and don´t summon them, they just work like summons to make it work in the context of a videogame.

Hm, that's a shame... especially since a case could be made that Undead are summons too, as only their bodies are "raised", while the souls that animate said bodies would still need to be summoned into their corporeal forms.

But good to know either way, appreciated!

[Balekai]

İlk olarak krwr12 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ToveriJuri tarafından gönderildi:

In what universe is wizard always better than Sorc in a video game like this? In tabletop maybe. But for a player who is familiar with a game like this. I don't see how wizard would be better. Someone who knows what spells to prioritize will benefit more from spontaneous casting and more spell uses per day than versatility provided by the wizard.

That's the point, sorcerers trade the wizard's versatility for a slightly increased damage. While wizards stay highly valuable in all of battle situations, sorcerers can easily start to be carried around as a dead weight, doing nothing.

My experience with sorcerer vs. wizard in crpgs is this:

- If the game allows infinite resting for 8 hours all the time (like NWN1&2) using no resources and no consequences, Wizard is going to win out. This is because you can just spam rest. You get access to the entire spellbook and can switch to any spell for heart desires on the fly and after every encounter.

- If the game punishes you for resting too much (like hard/soft time limits in Kingmaker) or has whole areas where resting isn't possible, Sorcerer wins out. In these situations you can't beat having lots of spells per day and not needing to prepare specific spells.

I prefer wizard for blasting/DPS builds and Sorcerer for CC and summoning builds, usually combining the two for sorc. You can throw out tons of CC when it will work and throw out summons when it doesn't. In these cases you can just abuse heighten/extend spell metamagic and make copies of CC/summons for all spell levels.

I abused this throughout my entire Kingmaker hard playthrough including on Rovagug, never really running out of spells and keeping my party healthy and untouched the majority of the game. In many cases I was able to complete entire swaths pf chapters with 1-2 rests and have loads of time for Kingdom Management etc.

[Peelsepuuppi]

İlk olarak krwr12 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ToveriJuri tarafından gönderildi:

In what universe is wizard always better than Sorc in a video game like this? In tabletop maybe. But for a player who is familiar with a game like this. I don't see how wizard would be better. Someone who knows what spells to prioritize will benefit more from spontaneous casting and more spell uses per day than versatility provided by the wizard.

That's the point, sorcerers trade the wizard's versatility for a slightly increased damage. While wizards stay highly valuable in all of battle situations, sorcerers can easily start to be carried around as a dead weight, doing nothing.

Sorcerers stay highly valuable in all battle situations too if you pick the correct spells. As much as people would like all arcane spells to be useful a lot of it is fluff. In reality as a wizard you won't be using that much more of a varied spell book than you would with a sorcerer.

In my experience with these kinds of games and I've played basically all of them the versatility of the wizard is hardly ever a strength in practice. In theory yes you can prepare your wizard for beating every single situation optimally. In practice sorcerer gets just enough spells to cover nearly anything you'd want from an arcane caster.

[CDI Mario]

İlk olarak Insanity_184 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak GrandMajora tarafından gönderildi:

Remember, Witches keep their spells stored inside their familiar, instead of an actual spell book. Meaning that those of you on the Lich path are using your magical pet to rip people's souls out of their body and turn it into a bone lance, or whatever!

When you become a lich you simply stop using the familiar to cast spells. On later levels you gain the death domain and can grant spells. So if it makes you feel better your familiar is guilt free of the soul ripping.

That said sorcerer is better. The spell list is more robust and hex’s are not as useful later in the game.

Though the bloodline I assume is for role play because you will get a lot of the same ability’s as a lich.

Hexes seem extreamly useful late game. Isnt imposing disadvantage on every dice roll the enemy does while laughing at them really useful? opposite that for your companions?

[Livigy]

Is no one going to mention the Cruoromancer?

https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Cruoromancer

[CDI Mario]

Bu yorum otomatik içerik kontrolü sistemimiz tarafından analiz edilmeyi bekliyor. Zararlı içerik (ör. bilgilerinizi çalmaya teşebbüs eden internet siteleri) içermediğinden emin olana dek geçici olarak gizli kalacaktır.

[Skadi]

i am hoping to go for a frost themed elemental witch/ winter witch with lich path....having absolutely no clue about pathfinder though i shall see how much of an arrow in the knee it is going to be though hehe

[CDI Mario]

İlk olarak Skadi tarafından gönderildi:

i am hoping to go for a frost themed elemental witch/ winter witch with lich path....having absolutely no clue about pathfinder though i shall see how much of an arrow in the knee it is going to be though hehe :AOESheep::AOEKnight:

aside from the inexperience you will have with picking spells and hexes you should be fine

[Skadi]

İlk olarak CDI Mario tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Skadi tarafından gönderildi:

i am hoping to go for a frost themed elemental witch/ winter witch with lich path....having absolutely no clue about pathfinder though i shall see how much of an arrow in the knee it is going to be though hehe

aside from the inexperience you will have with picking spells and hexes you should be fine

hehe thanks, this game is a mess when you start getting into it. Would it be wise to bump a few levels into fighter to get some melee capabilities ? I love the idea of an ice huntress. I do not know though whether you can translate this well into this game

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.jlsM6UG1xJgW0op_v6Y1AwHaKH?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

[CDI Mario]

İlk olarak Skadi tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak CDI Mario tarafından gönderildi:

aside from the inexperience you will have with picking spells and hexes you should be fine

hehe thanks, this game is a mess when you start getting into it. Would it be wise to bump a few levels into fighter to get some melee capabilities ? I love the idea of an ice huntress. I do not know though whether you can translate this well into this game

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.jlsM6UG1xJgW0op_v6Y1AwHaKH?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

why do that and miss out on grand hexes? nah go full witch/winterwitch

[miqz]

I'm an absolute brainlet as far as thinking up builds goes, but i'm looking at the blood mage dhampir sublclass for wizard

[Homer Morisson]

İlk olarak miqz tarafından gönderildi:

I'm an absolute brainlet as far as thinking up builds goes, but i'm looking at the blood mage dhampir sublclass for wizard

Was looking at that one myself, but two reasons I do not like about that build:

1) As a Lich, I won't have any blood myself, so technically the stuff using my blood to empower my spells shouldn't even work anymore.

2) I just don't like non-spontaneous-casters... sure, Wizards are technically more versatile, but that's utterly moot unless you know exactly what you're up against before selecting your spells for the day, because you can't just switch them out on the fly.

To add to that latter point, especially with WotR, where you can't rest an infinite number of times, not only because you need resources to rest, but even more so because of the demonic corruption-mechanics, the Wizard's theoretical versatility is all but rendered ineffective... like I said, you'd have to know in advance what types of enemies and battle locations you'll encounter to even be able to prepare the proper spells.

Thus the spontaneous casters win out completely in this scenario, as they can actually be fully flexible in which of their spells they want to bring to bear, even when surprised by unexpected encounters.