Can you rely on summons on higher difficulties?

[Winger]

I never played summon oriented builds because I'm skeptical about that 60 AC, +30 AB, 6 attacks per round demon is going to start ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ his pants once he realizes my summons have +2 STR. (Okay bit of a hyperbole but you get the idea)

How has your experience been with summons? Can they make decent combatants with relevant builds late game or are they perpetually stuck in the role of sacrificial screens no matter what?

[phadin]

I just did the Flesh Market as an Azata. Summons were a hit an miss. Most are not going to be your big damage dealers, but they can still be good targets and meat shields. If they get the benefit of some of yoru buffs, they can also help out offensively, and being Azata I have a lot of buffs to pass around.

So yeah, in this fight by the end I had a bunch of spider swarms from my druid that could both hurt enemies and nausiate them so they couldn't fight, four Azata from Summon Monster 6 that were ineffective archers on offense (why don't they have Precise Shot if they are summoned with bows?) but they all popped mirror image and were running around casting heals as well. I also had a treant out and the third Azata mythic summon that were both contributing to the battle with some damage. That fight was sooooo freaking huge, but the summons defifnately helped take preasure and attacks off my main party, both by being targets and by effects like Nausia from the swarms.

[dwarfpcfan]

Summons aren't supposed to do damage, they are supposed to serve as an obstacle and distraction, their only purpose is to die in droves, keeping your party members from taking hits.

I for one salute the noble order of the redshirt, who constantly die in droves so that my party never takes damage in fights.

[Mauman]

Supposedly, with Aeon you can. I'm still skeptical.

[Archaon The Never-Chosen]

aeon summons become mythics so they are usable yes. but other then that just use animate dead as your only summon. redcaps and some other high level summons seemed okay when i had ember using them on core though

[Sotanaht]

Some summons cast useful spells. Monavic Devas (accessible early on through an item) cast Holy Aura first round, which can provide you with immunity to compulsion effects, VERY useful when you are up against enemies with dominate but don't have level 8 spells yet. Trickster's Nixie Prankster will just spam Greater Invisibility on the closest party member, so that has some benefit. Those Monavic Devas also happen to be immune to Destruction (probably immune to electric), which is very handy in a couple fights as well as a not-so-sacrificial shield.

[chibiakaii]

Originally posted by Winger:

I never played summon oriented builds because I'm skeptical about that 60 AC, +30 AB, 6 attacks per round demon is going to start ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ his pants once he realizes my summons have +2 STR. (Okay bit of a hyperbole but you get the idea)

How has your experience been with summons? Can they make decent combatants with relevant builds late game or are they perpetually stuck in the role of sacrificial screens no matter what?

Good on normal, but I built completely around it. Azata Beast Tamer bard, so I have per minute summons. The Beast Tamer ability summons don't cancel out Azata summons, so you can have 2 sets out for big/important battles. Other party members also have a few summons + I have Aivu and Bismuth. I use the lowest rank ones so I usually have 6 Mastodons wandering around with me all the time.

Using all the equipment that buffs your summons on cast like StormCaller, stuff like Ring of Summoning that provides passive effects to all allies, Friendship Bond with the melee teamwork feats, and massive ongoing AOE spell buffs like Guarded Hearth and bard songs. Stuff like Mark of Justice and Hunter's Bond gives bonuses to many or all of your summons as well. And ofc everyone benefits from key targets having debuffs.

Normal encounters are mostly just right-click on a random target and wait briefly as things die. Per minute summons will usually live through the entire map.

Most bosses have been the same. Colphyr Mine dragon boss with 70 AC just died without any of my characters taking damage or pets taking damage. I still had most of my Mastodons as well. Didn't bother counting the other shorter-lived summons. Only thing to watch out for are mind-affecting spells.

I don't think this would work as well on higher difficulties. But Normal? If you build around it, yeah its a cakewalk.

[MagnusGrey]

I dont care for the summon based classes, but even basic summons can do damage if you debuff the enemies, blind usually allows the summons to get some hits in and they do decent damage when they connect. 15 hasted skeletons can both screen and add dps. Even with they only hit on a 20 it can add a bit to tough fights.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

I dont care for the summon based classes, but even basic summons can do damage if you debuff the enemies, blind usually allows the summons to get some hits in and they do decent damage when they connect. 15 hasted skeletons can both screen and add dps. Even with they only hit on a 20 it can add a bit to tough fights.

"debuffing the enemies" generally requires you to beat their saving throw somehow. If you can do that, you could just render them helpless anyway, and shouldn't need the summons or any other debuffs.

There are a few exceptions of course. both with spells and abilities that ignore save DCs or are much easier to land, and enemies that are immune to effects that would make them helpless, but can suffer other penalties. Neither one seems to be the answer to letting your summons hit things though.

[MagnusGrey]

Most debuffs dont render an enemy helpless, just make them easier to deal with, and most are not permanent. When you are fighting bosses than can 1 shot your party, having a little more dps is nice, since you get the screen at the same time.

If you can't beat their savings throws, you should consider adding a debuff focused caster to your party. But I don;t understand how using abilities that do indeed allow your summons to hit things is not "the answer to letting your summons hit things."

[wendigo211]

I found the Wisp you get from picking the Chaos path at level 1 mythic pretty good against casters. They have spell immunity (except magic missile), so you can summon one near an enemy caster and run away leaving them to empty their spell book.

But yeah, they're distractions, and of not even good at that job given how quickly enemies chew through them.