So why would you want a bard?

[Fluff]

So I tried a bard in my 3rd run. Respeced Daeran into bard with his native stats and respec mod even. His stats at lvl 9 are 4 str 22 dex 10 con 8 int 12 wis 26 cha. So i diped into monk and all other into bard with weapon finesse & mythic, so his hit and dmg rolls scale off dex.

Yeah with mage armor he has >35 ac. Can be buffed with other buffs >40 ac. But all dangerous mobs and bosses still have modifiers +35 +40 at least on Core. Outside of them he tanks nicely though + mirror image + last stand ofc for bosses. Neither he is an awesome fighter. I tried giving him dual wielding rapiers or daggers with all the feats & he only has a modifier of +18 on first attack, +13 on 2nd. Which won't hit any big bad-s. Without dual wielding i wouldn't call stats impressive also compared to even shield basher Greybor i made, who has +22 on main and +21 on shield attack, with second attacks being almost as high as bard's first - +17 and +16. And with his slayer's mark he boosts those much higher.

And at the same time bard's songs don't impresse me at all. +2 to attack rolls e.g? it''s only +2 at this lvl, +3 next. And he gets 6 lvl spells max and very late. Why would i want a bard if i can have Brown Fur Transmuter at his place e.g? which will give much more and much earlier. Or some Divine buffer, because Sorc MC can handle most necessary arcane buffs. Have a witch this run also and damn she can be abused so hard, that she can prebuff the whole team with Fortune and Protective ward for several minutes with her Cackle.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Dirge + shatter defenses = permanent flat-footed.

[Fluff]

Originally posted by Lord Antony:

"Respeced Daeran into bard"
Do they fixed respec issue?

I used respec mod, but i guess the issue u'r talking about was fixed in 1.0.6

Originally posted by Alm:

Dirge + shatter defenses = permanent flat-footed.

is it Dirge of Doom u'r talking about? Do u use Shatter Defense manually? May be will need Str for intimidate bonus also then

[Lord Antony]

Thank you for the answer.

[アンジェル]

That is... a hard question.
I am personally no fan of bards until WotR. Like, POE or Kingmaker let you have a bard in your party and I always questioned why it makes sense to have one.

What is so special about my bard... it is basically she is who does all the skillcheck stuff. Trickery, Perception, Lore, Knowledge and so on. While her songs might not be so grand they are still helpful even for a little. Extra courage protected me reliably against fear and fright stuff. Extra competence made often enough the needed difference for checks. And the hat which gives fast healing gives my party extra survivalbility thanks to her.

All those put aside... it seems she is a rather weak support character. Sure, last stand, mirror image etc. - but those things can my Oracle too.

I guess I will try out your suggestions with having a witch instead and see if its better.

[mbradtke]

bard song alone is a very good reason, you only need lv 5 to get +2 on most attack and damage rolls for the whole group, bard is a very useful tool and can also easily speced in something tanky/melee as well

[Conquista]

good hope spell is pretty good till you get greater heroism

[toon77]

why would you not want a bard ? its got the best CC in the game ... imo :)

[Fluff]

Originally posted by toon77:

why would you not want a bard ? its got the best CC in the game ... imo :)

May be i'm using him wrong, so yeah. How do you use yours for best CC?

[DarkFenix]

Because the bard is the best all round support caster in Pathfinder. They aren't supposed to be tanking, they aren't supposed to be awesome fighters.

I can't imagine any reason you'd want to take an arcanist instead. What, you get spells a couple of levels earlier, in return you lose hp, BAB, bardic performance, bard-specific buffs... Bard is just a no-brainer as a support caster. And bardic performance should impress anyone who understands Pathfinder's mechanics, an up to +4 bonus to attack and damage rolls that stacks with basically every other buff out there, that's huge. Then there's dirge of doom, which is great. Thundercaller has op cc.

[Fluff]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Because the bard is the best all round support caster in Pathfinder. They aren't supposed to be tanking, they aren't supposed to be awesome fighters.

I can't imagine any reason you'd want to take an arcanist instead. What, you get spells a couple of levels earlier, in return you lose hp, BAB, bardic performance, bard-specific buffs... Bard is just a no-brainer as a support caster. And bardic performance should impress anyone who understands Pathfinder's mechanics, an up to +4 bonus to attack and damage rolls that stacks with basically every other buff out there, that's huge.

Just 1 self-buff from Brown Fur Transmuter spent instead on your tank will give him +4 AC that is not possible to get in any other way. Or +2-4-6 bonus to hit or stat = BAB = which is also not possible to get in any other way. Immunity to ability damage, crits, fire, cold, etc etc. And bard so far just gives +2 +3 to attack roll and that's all. I look in bard's spell book for 5-6 lvl and i see nothing that arcane/divine buffers don't have, but many things that they have are not there. Many 7-9 buffs which are very strong especially.
Did you try Brown Fur so we can equaly compare them?

[BIG E.]

I mean single Oracle alongside with a Paladin and maybe a warpriest seems to cover most stuff in terms of buffs.

I can't really speak about Unfair but you don't need a bard for other difficulties. Maybe level dip for song ? But idk. Casters/buffers usually have pretty strong stuff on level 20 so i don't like level dipping with them.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by Alm:

Dirge + shatter defenses = permanent flat-footed.

This is the precise reason why you would carry a bard. Read the number of posts where people complain they can't hit anything in Wrath or where they praise mythic feats that let them do 1/20 normal damage on a miss instead of nothing at all. The game does not have to be that way if you think carefully about how to hit more often. Dirge gives your party massive to-hit bonuses against some of the game's toughest enemies, if you take the time to build your party around it.

Secondarily some bard-specific buffs matter, but in my judgment they aren't in and of themselves enough to justify a bard over a sage sorcerer or brown-fur transmuter or exploiter wizard, which bring much greater casting versatility to the table and can more than adequately cover knowledge/lore.

[LArc7thHeaven]

Bard buff whole party and dirge bard can create multiple to unlimited meat shield. Fast heal, +4 check on saves on whole party not only on 1 character. Lingering performance + dirge bard raise undead can gives you unlimited skeleton soldiers as meat shield

[Mork]

I always want a bard in my party but i never want a pure class bard.

For example Seelah as 2 paladin / 13 bard who can buff herself to be a better tank but also buff the party with songs and good hope.

[Agent]

Plus you can always put your bard in heavy armor and a shield to get their AC way up. Yeah, you'll still have like 25% arcane failure but if you're mostly buffing and using songs, which you should be, you can take off the armor (or cast through it and re-cast occasionally if its too much effort).

The abundant casting feats mean that every cast doesn't count any more, you almost certainly won't run out of casts of your buffs.

Seelah as a paladin/bard in mithril plate and a shield works quite well.