Point blank shot and precise shot

[Darx]

does point blank shot and precise shot also work for spells? or really only ranged weapons e.g. bows?

[Cutlass Jack]

It works for ranged touch spells. Which for purposes of this game are treated like ranged weapons where most feats are concerned.

[Nismu]

yes they work for spells , for ranged touch spells like rays.

[TripSin]

Not for all spells, but, like said, for ranged touch spells which, btw, also use your dex modifier in the attack roll calculation.

[T.W. Hamill]

You basically are forced to take them if you ever intend to use any ranged touch spells.

[Morgian]

Without them you get -4 to hit with ranged touch attacks.

[AELeonson]

It's actually one of the big complaints in tabletop. These two feats are considered a "Feat tax" in order to play a ranged character of any kind.

[Zuloph]

Originally posted by AELeonson:

It's actually one of the big complaints in tabletop. These two feats are considered a "Feat tax" in order to play a ranged character of any kind.

Considering ranged is so much stronger than melee in how many attacks it can do it needs a feat tax.

Melee can do 1.5x Str with 2h weapons but as soon as they run out of targets in range they stop attacking where as a ranged character can just keep going until it's out of attacks usually. Stacking damage with a ranged character is pretty easy too and ammunition is dirt cheap anyways

[TripSin]

Originally posted by AELeonson:

It's actually one of the big complaints in tabletop. These two feats are considered a "Feat tax" in order to play a ranged character of any kind.

Definitely feels that way. That's why I'm about to just add feats through toybox to compensate for them.

[Viper]

Ranged Touch spells...not all spells.

[belangf]

Originally posted by TripSin:

Originally posted by AELeonson:

It's actually one of the big complaints in tabletop. These two feats are considered a "Feat tax" in order to play a ranged character of any kind.

Definitely feels that way. That's why I'm about to just add feats through toybox to compensate for them.

Well the first one give a +1 bonus, so a ranged character would probably want that anyway. The second one is required for an archer, but it's like taking shield focus for a tank. They`re 'boring' feats but I think they are a fair price to invest in your role. But I find they are not very important for casters, because touch AC is usually low enough (at least on Normal). Nenio usually hits her scorching rays most of the time, even without those feats.

[Zin]

Originally posted by Zuloph:

Originally posted by AELeonson:

It's actually one of the big complaints in tabletop. These two feats are considered a "Feat tax" in order to play a ranged character of any kind.

Considering ranged is so much stronger than melee in how many attacks it can do it needs a feat tax.

Melee can do 1.5x Str with 2h weapons but as soon as they run out of targets in range they stop attacking where as a ranged character can just keep going until it's out of attacks usually. Stacking damage with a ranged character is pretty easy too and ammunition is dirt cheap anyways

My brother in Christ, I atack only once with my mage. With a ray that deals hilarious amount of damage. In which part is that fair, that I should add two more feats to actually hit someone with my spells. I agree that it's fair for archers, but not for casters

[Soul]

Originally posted by Zinemay:

Originally posted by Zuloph:

Considering ranged is so much stronger than melee in how many attacks it can do it needs a feat tax.

Melee can do 1.5x Str with 2h weapons but as soon as they run out of targets in range they stop attacking where as a ranged character can just keep going until it's out of attacks usually. Stacking damage with a ranged character is pretty easy too and ammunition is dirt cheap anyways

My brother in Christ, I atack only once with my mage. With a ray that deals hilarious amount of damage. In which part is that fair, that I should add two more feats to actually hit someone with my spells. I agree that it's fair for archers, but not for casters

well... as a caster using ranged "touch" attacks.... your enemy touch AC is gonna be lower than normal AC.... having point blank shot and precise shot will essentially just give you a plus 5 to hit within 30 feet and plus 1 bonus to damage..... which in a way is kinda like giving your character an extra 10 points of dex within a 30 foot range for shooting into melee... or a plus 8 if beyond 30 feet shooting into melee.... easier to guarantee a hit with your spells against their touch AC.....

2 feats that remove a -4 penalty to hit with ranged touch attacks.... which..... if your a caster and are using rays would also want spell penetration and greater spell penetration too.... which are both +2 to spell penetration.... so thats 2 other feats that give an effective +4 to "hit" through spell resistance...

and archers may be able to fire multiple shots per round and that -4 sounds like its really more beneficial to them to sacrifice 2 feat slots for.... which it is.... but casters especially blasters are a whole different monster.... (which you technically "dont" have to take point blank shot and precise shot so early.... just cast 1st level spell true strike when you want for a plus 20 to hit...).... but by end game say level 20 you would as a caster be able to cast say... hellfire ray.... 3 rays requiring ranged touch attack each... dealing 15d6... thats 45d6.... if which you could with metamagic feats and rods..... bolster, empower, maximize, quicken.... and with one quickened... be able to cast another one bolstered, empowered, maximized..... and if you were azata with zippy magic and there were 2 enemies within range of your target... it would trigger for both of those.... and you'd have 4 hellfire rays bolstered, empowered, maximized, for damage.... thats 12 ranged touch attacks to roll for.... 12 spell penetration checks.... and a total of... 180d6.... my math may be wrong im not sure but..... bolstered would make that 180d6... 180d6 + 360... maximized would make 180d6... 1,080 damage..... 1,080 + 360 = 1,440 damage from bolstered and maximized alone... empower portion would be half the value of 180d6 roll so kinda random to calculate but it would make that 1,440 much higher though.... and thats if none of the rays crit... lol

[IceLancer]

Point blank is necessary for precise shot. And precise shot is necessary for ray spells.
There is one downside however.
When you get point blank it auto-activate it self , but you do not want that. Because it will force you to go to 30feet range even if spell can be casted from bigger distance.

So shut it of.

[Soul]

Originally posted by IceLancer:

Point blank is necessary for precise shot. And precise shot is necessary for ray spells.
There is one downside however.
When you get point blank it auto-activate it self , but you do not want that. Because it will force you to go to 30feet range even if spell can be casted from bigger distance.

So shut it of.

true... but there is a way to circumvent it.... for instance loremaster secrets will allow you to pick up feats without having to meet prerequisites.... meaning if you take loremaster you can choose the combat feat secret and pick up precise shot without needing to pick point blank shot...

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Zinemay:

Originally posted by Zuloph:

Considering ranged is so much stronger than melee in how many attacks it can do it needs a feat tax.

Melee can do 1.5x Str with 2h weapons but as soon as they run out of targets in range they stop attacking where as a ranged character can just keep going until it's out of attacks usually. Stacking damage with a ranged character is pretty easy too and ammunition is dirt cheap anyways

My brother in Christ, I atack only once with my mage. With a ray that deals hilarious amount of damage. In which part is that fair, that I should add two more feats to actually hit someone with my spells. I agree that it's fair for archers, but not for casters

Well, you play them without Rays if you don't want to pick PBS/PS. Or just eat the penalty when you do. You could just pick Metamagic - Selective Spell and go full Evo-nuke. Nenio when played as an Illusionist doesn't use Rays. There's many ways to play a mage.