Just depressed about Lich

[Sudanna]

I like liches. I like intentionality of being and transcendence and transhumanism and immortality and defiance of the gods and the shucking of crude meat. In fantasy, I like the undead, as a weird monastically pure thing to be. Nobody makes undead like this, besides me, which is just life. I make do. I came here ready to make do. Pathfinder has some boring ideas about alignments and undeath I have to patiently ignore, I get it.

But, well, there's slaughtering that city for no reason. There's this pointless weirdo Zacharius, so all the lich stuff doesn't even really belong to my character. There's the romance thing. What, we can't talk about movies and confess our dreams and hold hands just because I'm a skeleton? I'd date a cool skeleton, no question, we'd have a great time arguing about roleplaying games or whatever.

Anyways, it all really drained my enthusiasm for the game as a whole. I sighed, wiped a couple dozen hours of saves, and said "Well, maybe I'll do Azata or something instead, I have the save from Drezen". But now I'm just sat on top of Drezen's inner gate with this dang banner and no enthusiasm for any of the options. I played all of Kingmaker without this problem, but that one didn't dangle lichdom in front of me just to insist that it has to suck, actually. Would anyone care to commiserate?

[Saathiya]

And people complain about a lack of moral nuance.

It's possible to do the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons. Or the wrong for wrong. Or right for right. That's two bits.

It's possible to do a thing a right or wrong way. And it's possible for people to be right or wrong about you for whatever it is that you do. We're up to four bits.

Already we have eight alignments of any action. Let's consider the lich in WoTR.

As the commander, you start down that path. You're fighting a war, saving the world, and doing whatever it takes to achieve your objective. So, you make some evil choices. The greater good is served at the price of a lesser number of people suffering or sacrificing. You did the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Along the way, you make additional choices. You're diplomatic or not. You build your forces well or not. You treat the crusaders well or not. What exactly constitutes doing something the right way depends upon who you ask.

So, you've done the wrong thing for the right reasons, both the right and wrong way, and people will see it as both right and wrong.

We shouldn't be so spoiled with happy endings where absolutely everything comes out as we like to see. I'm only in Chapter 4. I haven't seen what the ultimate outcome of my choices will be. But whatever the case, I expect there will be people who rise up against me, and I'll be utterly unapologetic about my actions.

The best way a game can make you the villain is not to. This game does it well.

My only complaint about lich so far is that they dangle the full transformation ahead of you for so long that there might not be enough game left to enjoy it.

[Nito]

Цитата допису DarkFenix:

But as for the whole romance thing, the entire point of lichdom is you're throwing away your mortality, humanity, all of that trivial nonsense, in the name of power and immortality. Just saying that you could keep all those things would be such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥-convenient cop out that it'd spoil the whole thing.

When you want to be a imortal simp

[Red Phantom]

Цитата допису Nito:

Цитата допису DarkFenix:

But as for the whole romance thing, the entire point of lichdom is you're throwing away your mortality, humanity, all of that trivial nonsense, in the name of power and immortality. Just saying that you could keep all those things would be such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥-convenient cop out that it'd spoil the whole thing.

When you want to be a imortal simp

An eternity of holding hands and talking about movies with an ocean of mortal women who always tell you not to worry about the guy who has the one type of bone you don't...

[Donnicton]

Цитата допису Meliora:

My only complaint about lich so far is that they dangle the full transformation ahead of you for so long that there might not be enough game left to enjoy it.

Swarm-that-walks has entered the chat

[Alehkra]

So, I haven't actually made much progress as a lich, yet...but just thinking about it, which companion exactly would be interested in romancing a lich? Any of the good or probably even just not-evil characters are out sort of on the face of it. Among the evil characters, if you ask for opinions while considering Zacharias' offer Daeran straight up says he thinks you'd look super ugly as a result. Judging by Camelia's camp comments to Wenduag, she probably has similar aesthetic feelings. So the options would be...Wenduag, I guess? She's all about power at the expense of everything else and clearly doesn't give a damn about humanity. Alright, I've talked myself into "Wenduag should be a romance option for liches, but no-one else".

[Nito]

Цитата допису Red Phantom:

An eternity of holding hands and talking about movies with an ocean of mortal women who always tell you not to worry about the guy who has the one type of bone you don't...

Considering polymorph and dragons turning into humans a skeleton have this type of bone doesn't look a impossible problem but more the lack of desire you are a undead you don't feel, you don't have hormones and etc... to make you even think about it. Mostly stuck in a obssesion for something wanted as a mortal

[Red Phantom]

Цитата допису Nito:

Цитата допису Red Phantom:

An eternity of holding hands and talking about movies with an ocean of mortal women who always tell you not to worry about the guy who has the one type of bone you don't...

Considering polymorph and dragons turning into humans a skeleton have this type of bone doesn't look a impossible problem but more the lack of desire you are a undead you don't feel, you don't have hormones and etc... to make you even think about it. Mostly stuck in a obssesion for something wanted as a mortal

Of course, of course. I was just using a vulgar allegory for even having mortal passions or desires.

[Nito]

Цитата допису Alehkra:

So, I haven't actually made much progress as a lich, yet...but just thinking about it, which companion exactly would be interested in romancing a lich? Any of the good or probably even just not-evil characters are out sort of on the face of it. Among the evil characters, if you ask for opinions while considering Zacharias' offer Daeran straight up says he thinks you'd look super ugly as a result. Judging by Camelia's camp comments to Wenduag, she probably has similar aesthetic feelings. So the options would be...Wenduag, I guess? She's all about power at the expense of everything else and clearly doesn't give a damn about humanity. Alright, I've talked myself into "Wenduag should be a romance option for liches, but no-one else".

Regill for Devil
Wend for Lich
Daeran for Azata
Arue for ???
Greybor for Aeon(or a threesome with Regill)
Ember for Golden Dragon
Seelah for angel
Wolfjit for Demon or Azata
Camellia for Regenerating blob of flesh and blood

[Shotgun Solutions]

Цитата допису Sudanna:

I like liches. I like intentionality of being and transcendence and transhumanism and immortality and defiance of the gods and the shucking of crude meat. In fantasy, I like the undead, as a weird monastically pure thing to be. Nobody makes undead like this, besides me, which is just life. I make do. I came here ready to make do. Pathfinder has some boring ideas about alignments and undeath I have to patiently ignore, I get it.

But, well, there's slaughtering that city for no reason. There's this pointless weirdo Zacharius, so all the lich stuff doesn't even really belong to my character. There's the romance thing. What, we can't talk about movies and confess our dreams and hold hands just because I'm a skeleton? I'd date a cool skeleton, no question, we'd have a great time arguing about roleplaying games or whatever.

Anyways, it all really drained my enthusiasm for the game as a whole. I sighed, wiped a couple dozen hours of saves, and said "Well, maybe I'll do Azata or something instead, I have the save from Drezen". But now I'm just sat on top of Drezen's inner gate with this dang banner and no enthusiasm for any of the options. I played all of Kingmaker without this problem, but that one didn't dangle lichdom in front of me just to insist that it has to suck, actually. Would anyone care to commiserate?

Agree with everything but the romance part. I mean I got 99 problems as a lich but a ♥♥♥♥♥ ain't one.

[Nito]

Цитата допису Red Phantom:

Of course, of course. I was just using a vulgar allegory for even having mortal passions or desires.

Now it got me on shower thoughts of D&D if a dragon could get pregnant from a smaller race when transformed the body suffers a total change with spells like that so feeling and etc... not exactly a block

On the other hand those thoughts go at the same line as: Canibalism solves 2 problems....lack of food and overpopulation

[Clown Fiesta]

Цитата допису Donnicton:

But you don't make that choice with the foreknowledge that she was going to reward you in that matter is the entire point. The only framing you have at the time is that you are tossing a very large part of your soul(as well as one of the Lich's biggest advantages of being a Lich) into the Worldwound in order to save Areelu from sacrificing herself. That's very much an antithetical concept to what being a Lich would have otherwise entailed.

i save beautiful women, even if they are evil, if you are hot, imma save you.

[T.W. Hamill]

Цитата допису Sudanna:

I like liches. I like intentionality of being and transcendence and transhumanism and immortality and defiance of the gods and the shucking of crude meat. In fantasy, I like the undead, as a weird monastically pure thing to be. Nobody makes undead like this, besides me, which is just life.

Well, if you came into a Pathfinder game expecting Undead to be anything other than what the Pathfinder setting makes them out to be (which is a wholly, totally, completely un-natural perversion of the natural order that even most other Evil things are like "whoa, thats screwed up") then...

Yeah im not sure what you were expecting, man.

[Donnicton]

Цитата допису Clown Fiesta:

Цитата допису Donnicton:

But you don't make that choice with the foreknowledge that she was going to reward you in that matter is the entire point. The only framing you have at the time is that you are tossing a very large part of your soul(as well as one of the Lich's biggest advantages of being a Lich) into the Worldwound in order to save Areelu from sacrificing herself. That's very much an antithetical concept to what being a Lich would have otherwise entailed.

i save beautiful women, even if they are evil, if you are hot, imma save you.

Fair.

[Red Phantom]

Цитата допису T.W. Hamill:

Well, if you came into a Pathfinder game expecting Undead to be anything other than what the Pathfinder setting makes them out to be (which is a wholly, totally, completely un-natural perversion of the natural order that even most other Evil things are like "whoa, thats screwed up") then...

Yeah im not sure what you were expecting, man.

This. It's not exactly the same thing as wearing a Jack Skellington hoodie

[Wormlore]

Цитата допису Sudanna:

I like liches. I like intentionality of being and transcendence and transhumanism and immortality and defiance of the gods and the shucking of crude meat. In fantasy, I like the undead, as a weird monastically pure thing to be. Nobody makes undead like this, besides me, which is just life. I make do. I came here ready to make do. Pathfinder has some boring ideas about alignments and undeath I have to patiently ignore, I get it.

But, well, there's slaughtering that city for no reason. There's this pointless weirdo Zacharius, so all the lich stuff doesn't even really belong to my character. There's the romance thing. What, we can't talk about movies and confess our dreams and hold hands just because I'm a skeleton? I'd date a cool skeleton, no question, we'd have a great time arguing about roleplaying games or whatever.

Anyways, it all really drained my enthusiasm for the game as a whole. I sighed, wiped a couple dozen hours of saves, and said "Well, maybe I'll do Azata or something instead, I have the save from Drezen". But now I'm just sat on top of Drezen's inner gate with this dang banner and no enthusiasm for any of the options. I played all of Kingmaker without this problem, but that one didn't dangle lichdom in front of me just to insist that it has to suck, actually. Would anyone care to commiserate?

This view on lichdom reminds me a lot of the sparkling vampires of Twilight.
I'm not convinced, though I won't deny your right to dream of sexy liches.

My view is pretty different though. For Lich in general and for the PF:WotR Lich mythic path in particular.
* In general, liches (like Zacharius) are generally mortals who decided to study death and ways to avoid it for years, decades even and accepted to sacrifice their humanity in pursuit of this version of immortality. Sacrifices and death-magic rituals are a definite way to speed the process.
* As the MC in WotR, there is no possibility to dedicate yourself to years or decades of studies and rituals, so the story gives you a mentor that cheaply shortens the process, at a price. Still sacrifices and other evil choices are part and parcel of such a path.

In either case, romance options are pretty tough because of most factors. starting with the fact that few, if any, mortal characters in a Pathfinder or DnD setting are willing to date an undead, even if you manage to stay Good-aligned. Most mortal will downright despise you for this choice, and the attached cost. Your own fantasies are kind of cute, but I don't really see them as "in character" for any of the companion characters. All the priests (except for worshippers of the god of undead... or your own cultists) will see you as an abomination, regardless of your personality.

At best, I can see Ember kind of tolerating your choice because she can even forgive demons (though she doesn't like this choice, see her very first line when you select this path.). I could also imagine Nenio giving it a try just for the sake of knowing what it feels like and write about lich fetishes. (She will likely forget about it as soon as possible though.) Some evil characters might respect your power and appreciate how it can help the cause, but that doesn't mean they like you either.

So, your appearance as a lich is the last of your trouble in finding romance...
And we haven't even touched the biology side of things. :D

Your skeleton fantasies are kind of cute, but I would find them as unrealistic and disappointing as sparkling vampires.

I do agree with the first line though. Mortal beings trying a high form of undeath as a way to transcend humanity. That's interesting, but that's all we see in common here.