Armor is Useless for AC in this game

[AvasNem]

It seems that armor isn`t worth the feats and itemslots.
ScaleF/oracle/witch dip and Archmage armor grant you way more and consistent AC.
Am I missing something, becasue i realy like armor.

[Grunaldi]

Ok all that talk about AC in fine if a little pointless without ... highest + to hit of an enemy in the game.

So does any1 know what are the numbers on Unfair last act ?(even playfull darkness could be a good reference point )

or will you just keep masturbating to 450 AC ?

[them4pples]

Originalmente postado por Sambo:

Originalmente postado por them4pples:

just hope you aren't ever flat footed then, because all those dex bonuses go bye bye

*Laughs in high initiative and uncanny dodge*

not everyone can get uncanny dodge and improved initiative won't help you against effects like being blind, paralyzed, stunned, etc. also invisible enemies can attack you flat footed, but you should have spells to combat that anyway. they still might get some attacks in though

[Lathanx]

Originalmente postado por them4pples:

Originalmente postado por Sambo:

*Laughs in high initiative and uncanny dodge*

not everyone can get uncanny dodge and improved initiative won't help you against effects like being blind, paralyzed, stunned, etc. also invisible enemies can attack you flat footed, but you should have spells to combat that anyway. they still might get some attacks in though

*Invisible enemies*


By the point that enemies would be a threat, like at all. Barring playful darkness, most fights just end up being you exploding everyone in 15 seconds and prebuffing again. If you do even a *modicum* of min maxing.

The only hard parts of the game are act 1 and the tail end of act 3. Mythics just weren't balanced for a crpg to have any semblance of it unfortunately.

Personally i enjoy the power fantasy.

[them4pples]

Originalmente postado por Sambo:

Originalmente postado por them4pples:

not everyone can get uncanny dodge and improved initiative won't help you against effects like being blind, paralyzed, stunned, etc. also invisible enemies can attack you flat footed, but you should have spells to combat that anyway. they still might get some attacks in though

*Invisible enemies*

By the point that enemies would be a threat, like at all. Barring playful darkness, most fights just end up being you exploding everyone in 15 seconds and prebuffing again. If you do even a *modicum* of min maxing.

The only hard parts of the game are act 1 and the tail end of act 3. Mythics just weren't balanced for a crpg to have any semblance of it unfortunately.

Personally i enjoy the power fantasy.

if we're killing everything in the first 15 seconds, then do we even need ac? lol jk

i agree, the power fantasy is awesome. the mythic paths are great and you really feel you party getting stronger as the game goes on.

[Lathanx]

Originalmente postado por them4pples:

Originalmente postado por Sambo:

*Invisible enemies*

By the point that enemies would be a threat, like at all. Barring playful darkness, most fights just end up being you exploding everyone in 15 seconds and prebuffing again. If you do even a *modicum* of min maxing.

The only hard parts of the game are act 1 and the tail end of act 3. Mythics just weren't balanced for a crpg to have any semblance of it unfortunately.

Personally i enjoy the power fantasy.

if we're killing everything in the first 15 seconds, then do we even need ac? lol jk

i agree, the power fantasy is awesome. the mythic paths are great and you really feel you party getting stronger as the game goes on.

True enough, i think the "naked ac" circle jerk is just unga bunga brain see high numbers= Dopamine Release.

It's funny having 100 ac and nothing can touch you except on a nat 20.

[PopsurSocks]

I blame Pathfinder system, Armour Class is an awful name since what its really describing is a chance to evade enemy attacks. From that perspective, it makes sense a dexterous fighter would be better able to evade attacks.

I wouldn't call Armour "useless" for AC, you can make tanky characters that wear armour, its just no-armour characters will have higher AC late game for sure.

[Princess Pilfer]

Originalmente postado por Indure:

Originalmente postado por Alex:

That simply isn’t as good as Archmage Armor (which grants at least 7+ AC by Drezen, and far more later on) + Dex (easily get to 6 or more with a dex belt) + scaled fist dip (6 from Cha). Add in the fact that you still get the benefit from Magical Vestments even without wearing armor and there’s just no contest. My Eldritch Scion was dwarfing every other companion in AC, even with tower shield feats and the best heavy armor I could find.

The fact is is that Archmage Armor has undeniably made dex builds and certain single level dips very powerful, and if you’re playing at certain difficulties you’re shooting yourself in the foot by not taking advantage of that. It’s unbalanced.

But the difference is heavy armor is free for a lot of classes and takes minimal stat investment. the build you posted needed heavy investment in 2 stats, a mythic ability and a class dip.

You *also* need heavy investment in heavy armor. Like without armor training to let you have your dex bonus (which means you also need decent dex or charisma btw) you won't have high enough AC for the late game. Armor training means taking a bunch of levels in fighter and having high dex. Which, if you're trying to play a paladin, is kinda gonna rain on your parade now isn't it?

Heavy armor is not 'free.' If you want an amount of AC that matters, you *need* to specifically invest in that heavy armor with classes like Fighter or Warpriest, or add in bonuses that work on top of it like Vivisectionist, as examples. And, worse, the benefits you get from the classes that make heavy armor better come at a *much* slower rate than investments in other areas. 5 levels of tower shield specialist, and 1 level of oracle to make your heavy armor paladin tank work is not 'free'. Playing a Tower Shield Specialist the whole game and so being kinda bad at everything except avoiding direct physical attacks is also not free.

Edit: This is not to say 'don't use heavy armor.' If you want to use heavy armor, use heavy armor. It can work. It *is* to say that 'it's free' doesn't really hold water. Even if you for some reason decided to go 1-20 tower shield specialist you still need pretty heavy investment in at least 2 stats. (also your saves will suck.) If you wanted to like, Paladin tank, suddenly you're diverting 1 level to oracle and 1 to vivisectionist (or 4 to mutation warrior or Tower Shield Specialist) just to try to get enough for the end game, which is actually exactly the same kind of dipping that unarmored tanks do.

[Gracey Face]

Originalmente postado por rumpelstiltskin:

Originalmente postado por Herr Glaube:

Archmage Armor really should have prerequisites. Being able to take it without even being able to cast the spell is really weird.

the description actually says that it only works when you cast it on yourself. is this part ignored in the game? (like crane feats' restrictions apparently are)

It's not ignored, just that in the rules using something like a wand or a potion on yourself is technically casting on yourself.

[B Unit]

Originalmente postado por PopsurSocks:

I blame Pathfinder system, Armour Class is an awful name since what its really describing is a chance to evade enemy attacks. From that perspective, it makes sense a dexterous fighter would be better able to evade attacks.

AC isn't just dodging a blow but also accounts for instances where your armor absorbs or deflects the attack. In the case of those characters who derive their AC from plate armor, the kinda dumb thing is the idea that the attack either gets completely deflected by the armor or goes through like butter meeting no resistance. Armor should have built in DR except perhaps in critical hit situations, but sadly it is what it is.

[Princess Pilfer]

Originalmente postado por Sambo:

Originalmente postado por them4pples:

if we're killing everything in the first 15 seconds, then do we even need ac? lol jk

i agree, the power fantasy is awesome. the mythic paths are great and you really feel you party getting stronger as the game goes on.

True enough, i think the "naked ac" circle jerk is just unga bunga brain see high numbers= Dopamine Release.

It's funny having 100 ac and nothing can touch you except on a nat 20.

TBH when enemies can crit for like 3x the maximum health of your character, making it so nothing can touch you except on a nat 20 is a big deal.

For reference, if they *have* to roll a 20 to hit you, there is a 1/400 chance of that likely-fatal crit.
If they can hit you on 19-20 (even if they can still only crit on a 20) it's 1/200.
18-20 it's 1/133.
18-20 if they have an 18-20 crit range is 1/45.

Welcome to pathfinder math, where the returns are increasing and 3 AC is the difference between it taking 20 hits to kill you and 3 hits to kill you

[Elnidfse]

Originalmente postado por Grunaldi:

Ok all that talk about AC in fine if a little pointless without ... highest + to hit of an enemy in the game.

So does any1 know what are the numbers on Unfair last act ?(even playfull darkness could be a good reference point )

or will you just keep masturbating to 450 AC ?

The highest I recall is Areshkagal which is +70 (down to +63 when she splits)
Deskari gets a spell mention as he's +68 to your touch AC.
Without Last Stand/Life Bonding Friendship all it takes to end your entire life is 1-3 hits, chancing anything lower than +90 AC for the aforementioned fight is ludicrous.
The average in chapter 5 is 58-65 or 85AC to avoid dying immediately.

[FreedomTime]

Originalmente postado por Princess Pilfer:

Originalmente postado por Sambo:

True enough, i think the "naked ac" circle jerk is just unga bunga brain see high numbers= Dopamine Release.

It's funny having 100 ac and nothing can touch you except on a nat 20.

TBH when enemies can crit for like 3x the maximum health of your character, making it so nothing can touch you except on a nat 20 is a big deal.

For reference, if they *have* to roll a 20 to hit you, there is a 1/400 chance of that likely-fatal crit.
If they can hit you on 19-20 (even if they can still only crit on a 20) it's 1/200.
18-20 it's 1/133.
18-20 if they have an 18-20 crit range is 1/45.

Welcome to pathfinder math, where the returns are increasing and 3 AC is the difference between it taking 20 hits to kill you and 3 hits to kill you

The more I figure this stuff out to play the game the more I realize I just hate the pathfinder 1E system lol. Maybe the later editions are better but owlcat really needs to grasp the fundamental principle, that they're making a crpg, not a ttrpg. Even if the later editions fix a lot of problems, its still gonna be half baked by the different format.

[Elnidfse]

Originalmente postado por FreedomTime:

Originalmente postado por Princess Pilfer:

TBH when enemies can crit for like 3x the maximum health of your character, making it so nothing can touch you except on a nat 20 is a big deal.

For reference, if they *have* to roll a 20 to hit you, there is a 1/400 chance of that likely-fatal crit.
If they can hit you on 19-20 (even if they can still only crit on a 20) it's 1/200.
18-20 it's 1/133.
18-20 if they have an 18-20 crit range is 1/45.

Welcome to pathfinder math, where the returns are increasing and 3 AC is the difference between it taking 20 hits to kill you and 3 hits to kill you

The more I figure this stuff out to play the game the more I realize I just hate the pathfinder 1E system lol. Maybe the later editions are better but owlcat really needs to grasp the fundamental principle, that they're making a crpg, not a ttrpg. Even if the later editions fix a lot of problems, its still gonna be half baked by the different format.

It's not inherently this wacky. Kingmaker struck a pretty damn good balance.

[SpiralRazor]

Originalmente postado por tempest.of.emptiness:

Mage armor is much easier to dispel than armor.

Indeed, and there are a lot of dispels in the game.

[SpiralRazor]

Originalmente postado por sweetchilliheat:

Originalmente postado por PopsurSocks:

I blame Pathfinder system, Armour Class is an awful name since what its really describing is a chance to evade enemy attacks. From that perspective, it makes sense a dexterous fighter would be better able to evade attacks.

AC isn't just dodging a blow but also accounts for instances where your armor absorbs or deflects the attack. In the case of those characters who derive their AC from plate armor, the kinda dumb thing is the idea that the attack either gets completely deflected by the armor or goes through like butter meeting no resistance. Armor should have built in DR except perhaps in critical hit situations, but sadly it is what it is.

this was an oversight on Gygax's part. Dude was a creative genius, but sadly lacked knowledge thats commonplace today. And hence, we are stuck with all or nothing AC.