Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Statistiche:
Armor is Useless for AC in this game
It seems that armor isn`t worth the feats and itemslots.
ScaleF/oracle/witch dip and Archmage armor grant you way more and consistent AC.
Am I missing something, becasue i realy like armor.
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Visualizzazione di 16-30 commenti su 122
Messaggio originale di YouOnly LiveOnline:
The way Armor works in general is dumb anyway. AC effects your chance to be hit, so if you really think about it having heavy Armor on would slow down your character making it easier to be hit.

AC should really be for dodge based classes so light / no Armor so it kind makes sense that you can get higher AC with these types of class. Heavy Armor should be damage reduction rather than miss chance.

On a side note if you want to use heavy Armour and tank I found using a Gendarme to be one of the better ways to do it. Despite having lower AC than a character with a bunch of dips, a full Gendarme built correctly can tank really well while mounted. I only play on core though so not sure what hard+ would be like.
there is literally a alternate ruleset in PnP that makes it so armour gives DR and not AC. but it's kinda wonk in practice.
Armor is not useless, it's just inferior and requires a *lot* of investment. People say that dex AC stacking has a feat tax for damage, but when 3 of your class features have to be specifically devoted to making heavy armor not suck in order for it to be good well. That's a pretty big investment.

(PS, 'moderate' armor is basically pointless, especially mid-late game. Quirk of Pathfinder math. Either you have AC that's at least 10 more than they have attack bonus or you may as well have 0 AC. This does really hurt non-tank classes that have feats and stuff that give them more armor they can't really benefit from because their AC doesn't get high enough to matter.)

Dispell is extremely uncommon in the game, to the point where it's not even really a concern. Your buffs will stay on.
You are missing this;

"
Advanced Armor Training

Source: Pathfinder Player Companion: Armor Master’s Handbook

Highly skilled and tenacious fighters can gain advanced armor training, learning techniques and applications of the armor training class feature that give them special benefits in exchange for reducing their ability to mitigate their armor’s armor check penalty and improve its maximum Dexterity bonus.

Advanced armor training options function only when the fighter is wearing appropriate armor or using a shield, unless otherwise noted. A fighter with an archetype that replaces armor training cannot select advanced armor training options.

Adaptable Training (Ex): The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in one skill of his choice from the following list: Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim. The fighter need not be wearing armor or using a shield to use this option. When using adaptable training, the fighter substitutes his total base attack bonus (including his base attack bonus gained through levels in other classes) for his ranks in this skill, but adds the skill’s usual ability score modifier and any other bonuses or penalties that would modify that skill. Once a skill has been selected, it cannot be changed and the fighter can immediately retrain all of his ranks in the selected skill at no additional cost in money or time. In addition, the fighter adds all skills chosen with this option to his list of class skills. A fighter can choose this option up to four times.

Armor Specialization (Ex): The fighter selects one specific type of armor with which he is proficient, such as chain shirts or scale mail. While wearing the selected type of armor, the fighter adds one-quarter of his fighter level to the armor’s armor bonus, up to a maximum bonus of +3 for light armor, +4 for medium armor, or +5 for heavy armor. This increase to the armor bonus doesn’t increase the benefit that the fighter gains from feats, class abilities, or other effects that are determined by his armor’s base armor bonus, including other advanced armor training options. A fighter can choose this option multiple times. Each time he chooses it, he applies its benefit to a different type of armor.

Armored Confidence (Ex): While wearing armor, the fighter gains a bonus on Intimidate checks based upon the type of armor he is wearing: +1 for light armor, +2 for medium armor, or +3 for heavy armor. This bonus increases by 1 at 7th level and every 4 fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of +4 at 19th level. In addition, the fighter adds half his armored confidence bonus to the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him.

Armored Juggernaut (Ex): When wearing heavy armor, the fighter gains DR 1/—. At 7th level, the fighter gains DR 1/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 2/— when wearing heavy armor. At 11th level, the fighter gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. If the fighter is 19th level and has the armor mastery class feature, these DR values increase by 5. The DR from this ability stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the fighter is helpless, stunned, or unconscious.

Armored Master: The fighter gains an armor mastery feat or a shield mastery feat as a bonus feat. He must meet all of the feat’s prerequisites.

Armored Sacrifice (Ex): When damage would cause the fighter or an adjacent ally to be knocked unconscious or killed, the fighter can instead direct the damage to a suit of armor that he is wearing or a shield he is using as an immediate action. The original target takes no damage, but the armor or shield is treated as if it had only half its normal hardness. The fighter can use this option once per day, plus one additional time each day at 11th level and every 8 fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of three times per day at 19th level.

Armored Sprint (Ex): The fighter gains Run as a bonus feat. If the fighter is proficient with heavy armor, he treats heavy armor as if it were one category lighter for the purpose of determining how fast he can move while running in armor.

Critical Deflection (Ex): While wearing armor or using a shield, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to his AC against attack rolls made to confirm a critical hit. This bonus increases by 1 at 7th level and every 4 fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 19th level.

Master Armorer (Ex): The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in the Craft (armor) skill. The fighter need not be wearing armor or using a shield to use this option. The fighter substitutes his total base attack bonus (including his base attack bonus gained through levels in other classes) for his ranks in this skill, but adds the skill’s usual ability score modifier and any other bonuses or penalties that would modify that skill. Additionally the fighter is treated as having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Master Craftsman feats, but only for the purpose of making magic armor. The fighter does not need to meet these feats’ prerequisites.

Quick Donning (Ex): The fighter can don armor in a hurry without reducing its effectiveness, and remove it quickly when it becomes a hindrance. When the fighter dons or removes his armor or dons it hastily, the amount of time needed to do so is reduced, as noted on the table below. Other characters can still help the fighter don his armor as normal
Armor Type Don Don Hastily Remove
Light armor 5 rounds 1 round 5 rounds
Medium armor 1 minute 5 rounds 1 minute
Heavy armor 2 minutes 1 minute 1d4 minutes

Additionally, when wearing hastily donned armor, the fighter can attempt a Strength or Dexterity check as a full-round action to remove the penalties associated with wearing hastily donned armor (DC = 10 + his armor’s unmodified armor bonus). If he succeeds at the check, he is treated as having properly donned his armor rather than having hastily donned it. The fighter can also remove his armor in the same amount of time that it takes him to don his armor hastily. He can even remove sections of armor to escape grapples and similar grasping hindrances. Whenever the fighter attempts a combat maneuver check, an Escape Artist check, or a Strength check to escape from an effect that reduces or restricts his ability to move or act, he can reduce the armor bonus of any armor that he is wearing by up to half his armor’s base armor bonus. If he does so, he gains a bonus on his check equal to the amount by which he reduced his armor’s armor bonus. Multiple uses of this ability cannot reduce the armor’s armor bonus below half its base armor bonus, and the reduction to the armor’s armor bonus lasts until the fighter recovers and dons the removed pieces of armor.

Steel Headbutt (Ex): While wearing medium or heavy armor, a fighter can deliver a headbutt with his helm as part of a full attack action. This headbutt is in addition to his normal attacks, and is made using the fighter’s base attack bonus – 5. A helmet headbutt deals 1d3 points of damage if the fighter is wearing medium armor, or 1d4 points of damage if he is wearing heavy armor (1d2 and 1d3, respectively, for Small creatures), plus an amount of damage equal to 1/2 the fighter’s Strength modifier. Treat this attack as a weapon attack made using the same special material (if any) as the armor. The armor’s enhancement bonus does not modify the headbutt attack, but the helm can be enchanted as a separate weapon.

Unmoving (Ex): Select one combat maneuver (except sunder). Whether using his armor as leverage against a grappling foe or using its weight to help him stop a bull rush, a fighter can use his armor to protect him from the chosen combat maneuver. While wearing armor or wielding a shield, the fighter gains a bonus to his CMD against the chosen combat maneuver. The bonus is +1 if he’s wearing light armor, +2 if he’s wearing medium armor, and +3 if he’s wearing heavy armor. This bonus increases by 1 at 7th level and every 4 fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum at 19th level of +5 for light armor, +6 for medium armor, and +7 for heavy armor. Mithral armor provides a bonus 1 lower than normal for armor of its type

"

Because Owlcat never bother to implement Pathfinder correctly when fighter are concerned...
There are plenty of unbalanced things here, but I suggest taking both the gear stats and difficulty of the game with a grain of salt so perhaps it is more enjoyable.

For example: I really want to play the Cavalier class that is fairly buggie and questionably broken in turnbased combat. So? I downloaded toybox and gestalt + Paladin class to compensate, and turned up the difficulty a bit.

TLDR: Play whatever you want, add stuff if you find it unfair, have fun :D
Messaggio originale di mutenroshie:
It seems that armor isn`t worth the feats and itemslots.
ScaleF/oracle/witch dip and Archmage armor grant you way more and consistent AC.
Am I missing something, becasue i realy like armor.

I don't understand what investment you are putting into heavy armor? Most classes that benefit from heavy armor have it built into their class and the few on the edges usually only need to spend 1 feat for it. By contrast, your example build has 2 class dips and uses a mythic feat. That is way more restrictive.

By the end of Drezen you have +1 mithral armor which is 11AC + 3 dex. combined with magical vestment (+2 at Drezen) and you get 16 base AC for no investment. This is as good or better than Archmage armor at this point. Archmage will scale higher late game which undeniably useful, but at the same time the game gets substantially easier late game due to how powerful you become.
Hehe plenty of ways not to die. U got last stand as well + animal companions ( Just ride companion when getting low or when last stand is gone.. If both you and your animal companion are tanky . Well its going to take a few hits to kill you :D
Ultima modifica da Edstyles; 28 set 2021, ore 8:32
Messaggio originale di Indure:
I don't understand what investment you are putting into heavy armor? Most classes that benefit from heavy armor have it built into their class and the few on the edges usually only need to spend 1 feat for it. By contrast, your example build has 2 class dips and uses a mythic feat. That is way more restrictive.

By the end of Drezen you have +1 mithral armor which is 11AC + 3 dex. combined with magical vestment (+2 at Drezen) and you get 16 base AC for no investment. This is as good or better than Archmage armor at this point. Archmage will scale higher late game which undeniably useful, but at the same time the game gets substantially easier late game due to how powerful you become.
That simply isn’t as good as Archmage Armor (which grants at least 7+ AC by Drezen, and far more later on) + Dex (easily get to 6 or more with a dex belt) + scaled fist dip (6 from Cha). Add in the fact that you still get the benefit from Magical Vestments even without wearing armor and there’s just no contest. My Eldritch Scion was dwarfing every other companion in AC, even with tower shield feats and the best heavy armor I could find.

The fact is is that Archmage Armor has undeniably made dex builds and certain single level dips very powerful, and if you’re playing at certain difficulties you’re shooting yourself in the foot by not taking advantage of that. It’s unbalanced.
Ultima modifica da alex; 28 set 2021, ore 8:48
Messaggio originale di Elnidfse:
It's not useless. It's just archmage armor and oracle/scaleF double dips are one of the easier ways to consistently have good armor without marrying a tower shield or dodge+3 crane feats.
Archmage Armor really should have prerequisites. Being able to take it without even being able to cast the spell is really weird.

Goes for some of the other abilities too, though in most cases it's more "this shouldn't show up when i can't actually use it".
Messaggio originale di Herr Glaube:
Messaggio originale di Elnidfse:
It's not useless. It's just archmage armor and oracle/scaleF double dips are one of the easier ways to consistently have good armor without marrying a tower shield or dodge+3 crane feats.
Archmage Armor really should have prerequisites. Being able to take it without even being able to cast the spell is really weird.

Goes for some of the other abilities too, though in most cases it's more "this shouldn't show up when i can't actually use it".

Obvious bugs. Like zealot domains even tho my char doesnt even have domains.. :p
Mithril Fullplate & shield could compete with dodge tanks in KM but the addition of Archmage armor feat with nothing comparable given to armor tanks in this game, kinda busted the balance. Early on armor tanks in this game are still the best tanks. Later on the only thing an armor tank has over a dodge tank in this game is whatever enchantment their armor and potentially shield, provides
Ultima modifica da B Unit; 28 set 2021, ore 9:17
No matter what people think, nothing should be physically tankier than a full plate armor. So yeah, kinda disappointed to see naked builds tankier than heavily armored dudes.
That's honestly one of the points that bothers me the most with Pathfinder (probably actually the number one problem to me).
If you don't do ultra minmaxed ac stacking, you can't tank ♥♥♥♥ in the higher levels if you rely on heavy armors.
It's pretty hard to make a frontline 2h warrior work.
Ultima modifica da Veolfen; 28 set 2021, ore 9:29
Messaggio originale di Indure:
Messaggio originale di mutenroshie:
It seems that armor isn`t worth the feats and itemslots.
ScaleF/oracle/witch dip and Archmage armor grant you way more and consistent AC.
Am I missing something, becasue i realy like armor.

I don't understand what investment you are putting into heavy armor? Most classes that benefit from heavy armor have it built into their class and the few on the edges usually only need to spend 1 feat for it. By contrast, your example build has 2 class dips and uses a mythic feat. That is way more restrictive.

By the end of Drezen you have +1 mithral armor which is 11AC + 3 dex. combined with magical vestment (+2 at Drezen) and you get 16 base AC for no investment. This is as good or better than Archmage armor at this point. Archmage will scale higher late game which undeniably useful, but at the same time the game gets substantially easier late game due to how powerful you become.
The fact that you have to take levels in classes that have it and get significant bonuses from it, *instead* stuff that could have gone to other places.

Lets use an example. Witch 1 (stigmatized), Insinctual Warrior 2, Hunter 17. (I use this example because there's minimal munchkining involved, though if you wanted to munchkin harder dropping 1 level of hunter for 1 level of monk or fighter would net you like 7 more AC, or some extra damage from the bonus feat)

10 base, Archmage armor 14 (self cast,) 7 from wisdom, 11 dex, 6 natrual, 6 deflection, 7 fighting defensively (crane feats,) 1 dodge (the feat,) 4 magical vestments (self cast,) 3 dodge (robe), 3 judgement, 2 iceplant, 1 familiar, 4 combat expertise, 4 shield (the spell,) 3 luck. You could get 3 more if you decided to use a dagger or kukri.
For a total of 86 (or 89 if you devote a weapon slot to it, which I probably woulnd't,) assuming I'm remembering all the numbers correctly. You can get 1 more in a pinch if you rage. And, on top of that because almost none of your class features are dedicated to it, you're a fully functional hunter. Your personal damage is mediocre but judgements are *huge* damage boosts for the rest of the party, and you have a pet.

This is comparable to what a Tower Shield specialist would end up with, except *most* of your class features from TSS would go into only the AC. Sure you have bonus feats and yes they are valuable, you can be exploiting the on crit dazzling display (at least for enemies that aren't immune) or whatever and it's fine. (I want to stress that part, it is viable on every difficulty except Unfair) but as far as I'm aware nothing those extra TSS feats are going to get you is even remotely comparable to the kind of utility that Judgements, a Pet, and the Hunter spell list can bring.

Messaggio originale di Veolfen:
No matter what people think, nothing should be physically tankier than a full plate armor. So yeah, kinda disappointed to see naked builds tankier than heavily armored dudes.
This I do agree with, but tbh Archmage armor has little to do with it, no-armor was superior in kingmaker too. Archmage armor just widened the gap. It's a Pathfinder 1E problem, not an Owlcat problem.
Ultima modifica da Princess Pilfer; 28 set 2021, ore 9:25
Yeah it is indeed a problem with the pathfinder ruleset. Was editing while you were posting your message so you couldn't see & quote what i was adding, but that was i ended up adding.

My main problem is, it really feel like there's no perk to boost your tankiness at a certain point if you try to rely on heavy armor.
To start of, at base heavier armors should get +1 AC starting from mail armor (who's pointless compared to breastplate right now).

They really should add some feats/skills/mechanics to improve ACs, especially through mythics & physical classes (warrior/tower shield specialist/paladin/hellknight etc..) to boost ac further with armors.

Heavy armors require to have high strength to not have a slow ass character + adds a lot of maluses.
And also some boost to med armors (maybe feats that boosts AC depending on the weight category of your armor ?)
Messaggio originale di Princess Pilfer:
Messaggio originale di Indure:

I don't understand what investment you are putting into heavy armor? Most classes that benefit from heavy armor have it built into their class and the few on the edges usually only need to spend 1 feat for it. By contrast, your example build has 2 class dips and uses a mythic feat. That is way more restrictive.

By the end of Drezen you have +1 mithral armor which is 11AC + 3 dex. combined with magical vestment (+2 at Drezen) and you get 16 base AC for no investment. This is as good or better than Archmage armor at this point. Archmage will scale higher late game which undeniably useful, but at the same time the game gets substantially easier late game due to how powerful you become.
The fact that you have to take levels in classes that have it and get significant bonuses from it, *instead* stuff that could have gone to other places.

Lets use an example. Witch 1 (stigmatized), Insinctual Warrior 2, Hunter 17. (I use this example because there's minimal munchkining involved, though if you wanted to munchkin harder dropping 1 level of hunter for 1 level of monk or fighter would net you like 7 more AC, or some extra damage from the bonus feat)

10 base, Archmage armor 14 (self cast,) 7 from wisdom, 11 dex, 6 natrual, 6 deflection, 7 fighting defensively (crane feats,) 1 dodge (the feat,) 4 magical vestments (self cast,) 3 dodge (robe), 3 judgement, 2 iceplant, 1 familiar, 4 combat expertise, 4 shield (the spell,) 3 luck. You could get 3 more if you decided to use a dagger or kukri.
For a total of 86 (or 89 if you devote a weapon slot to it, which I probably woulnd't,) assuming I'm remembering all the numbers correctly. You can get 1 more in a pinch if you rage. And, on top of that because almost none of your class features are dedicated to it, you're a fully functional hunter. Your personal damage is mediocre but judgements are *huge* damage boosts for the rest of the party, and you have a pet.

This is comparable to what a Tower Shield specialist would end up with, except *most* of your class features from TSS would go into only the AC. Sure you have bonus feats and yes they are valuable, you can be exploiting the on crit dazzling display (at least for enemies that aren't immune) or whatever and it's fine. (I want to stress that part, it is viable on every difficulty except Unfair) but as far as I'm aware nothing those extra TSS feats are going to get you is even remotely comparable to the kind of utility that Judgements, a Pet, and the Hunter spell list can bring.

Messaggio originale di Veolfen:
No matter what people think, nothing should be physically tankier than a full plate armor. So yeah, kinda disappointed to see naked builds tankier than heavily armored dudes.
This I do agree with, but tbh Archmage armor has little to do with it, no-armor was superior in kingmaker too. Archmage armor just widened the gap. It's a Pathfinder 1E problem, not an Owlcat problem.
there is better armour feats in 1e and mythic feats specificially for buffing armour as well, they unfortunately didn't make it into the game and arch mage armour is weaker in the original material. it get buffed xD
I have an aldori swordlord with insane DEX and all his defensive feats and yet his AC still goes down if I take his padded armor off. So... maybe I'm an idiot, but it doesn't seem useless.
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Data di pubblicazione: 28 set 2021, ore 5:03
Messaggi: 122