Why is the random dice roller so bad?

[Nancy]

This is a beautiful game but the random dice roller is terrible. I have never seen so many 1's or 2's rolled by my characters in any game. The dice roller is worse than BG3 and that is pretty bad. The devs really need to look into this

[Brimsurfer]

JustSmile eredeti hozzászólása:

I love those threads.

BG3 dice roller is biased towards the player, the data compiled by players (who actually look at the numbers instead of having a feeling) leaves no doubt to that fact. It literally fixes the rolls so you roll better.
WotR dice are perfectly fair. In another topic a dude's written an application to compile and examine rolls from the log files, there's not a shred of anything out of the ordinary with data.

That's a lie, WOTR heavily favours the enemies / monsters on Core difficulty. I don't know about other difficulties because I have only played this game on Core. I have been playing DnD games since early 90s and I have never seen such loaded dice.
This gaming is a F****** waste of time and money...

[Ironslayer541]

John Doe eredeti hozzászólása:

Brimsurfer eredeti hozzászólása:

That's a lie, WOTR heavily favours the enemies / monsters on Core difficulty. I don't know about other difficulties because I have only played this game on Core. I have been playing DnD games since early 90s and I have never seen such loaded dice.
This gaming is a F****** waste of time and money...

the difficult has nothing to do with dice rolls.

you didn't even read the data I gave you, how unsurprising. so here's the abridged version: I tested on 3880 consecutive rolls, 1919 rolls are above 10. which is roughly 50%, The game is fair, the problem is you.
Also BG3 has the "Karmic Dice" the game option, it's literally geared towards to players.(it forbids consecutive low rolls)

Like I said if you have been playing since the 90s, and you think this game is unfair, then there's something wrong with your group culture. I know some groups that forbids any killing of PCs, so DMs fudges dice roll all the time.
Judging by your attitude, your dm fudged more than that, did he use the stat of a kobold in place of tougher monsters? cause I don't even know how a DnD player could believe low rolls=rigged.
Or did you buy loaded dice then forgot about them, believing they are just normal?

As someone who was a DM for a campaign, I agree if your dm doesn't fudge the roles then 80% of non min-maxed characters would never live to lvl 10. If would say I have to fudge about 40 to 45% of the roles since I don't want to kill 3 PCs all the time. I mean sometimes I won't fudge the hit but ill fudge the damage just to keep the tension up, but I don't want to kill everyone all the time just because I rolled extremely well on a non important set piece. That's what the DM screen is for after all.

[XartaX]

Ironslayer541 eredeti hozzászólása:

John Doe eredeti hozzászólása:

the difficult has nothing to do with dice rolls.

you didn't even read the data I gave you, how unsurprising. so here's the abridged version: I tested on 3880 consecutive rolls, 1919 rolls are above 10. which is roughly 50%, The game is fair, the problem is you.
Also BG3 has the "Karmic Dice" the game option, it's literally geared towards to players.(it forbids consecutive low rolls)

Like I said if you have been playing since the 90s, and you think this game is unfair, then there's something wrong with your group culture. I know some groups that forbids any killing of PCs, so DMs fudges dice roll all the time.
Judging by your attitude, your dm fudged more than that, did he use the stat of a kobold in place of tougher monsters? cause I don't even know how a DnD player could believe low rolls=rigged.
Or did you buy loaded dice then forgot about them, believing they are just normal?

As someone who was a DM for a campaign, I agree if your dm doesn't fudge the roles then 80% of non min-maxed characters would never live to lvl 10. If would say I have to fudge about 40 to 45% of the roles since I don't want to kill 3 PCs all the time. I mean sometimes I won't fudge the hit but ill fudge the damage just to keep the tension up, but I don't want to kill everyone all the time just because I rolled extremely well on a non important set piece. That's what the DM screen is for after all.

In my experience if they are just getting majorly f'd by bad luck then fudging is probably a good idea unless the group specifically want to play hardcore paintrain. But if they're doing stupid things like attacking something clearly out of their league, etc. and getting themselves into trouble it's better to let them face the pain and learn from it.

In either case, a good GM, if he decides to fudge, will do so in a way that the group didn't even realize it happened.

[Immortal Reaver]

XartaX eredeti hozzászólása:

stupid things like attacking something clearly out of their league, etc. and getting themselves into trouble it's better to let them face the pain and learn from it.

This. I have almost every new group meet friendly sleeping Great Wyrm Dragon on lvl 1-2 (or something else powerful that will ignore party) and amount of players that will keep attacking it even after dealing 0 damage on crits is way too high.

[XartaX]

Immortal Reaver eredeti hozzászólása:

XartaX eredeti hozzászólása:

stupid things like attacking something clearly out of their league, etc. and getting themselves into trouble it's better to let them face the pain and learn from it.

This. I have almost every new group meet friendly sleeping Great Wyrm Dragon on lvl 1-2 (or something else powerful that will ignore party) and amount of players that will keep attacking it even after dealing 0 damage on crits is way too high.

I mean if that was my game, there wouldn't even be a "keep attacking". The whole party would be dead before they got to their second round lol (unless it was in character for the creature to be more amused than annoyed/upset that they're being attacked for no reason).

[Nosferatu]

Brimsurfer eredeti hozzászólása:

JustSmile eredeti hozzászólása:

I love those threads.

BG3 dice roller is biased towards the player, the data compiled by players (who actually look at the numbers instead of having a feeling) leaves no doubt to that fact. It literally fixes the rolls so you roll better.
WotR dice are perfectly fair. In another topic a dude's written an application to compile and examine rolls from the log files, there's not a shred of anything out of the ordinary with data.

That's a lie, WOTR heavily favours the enemies / monsters on Core difficulty. I don't know about other difficulties because I have only played this game on Core. I have been playing DnD games since early 90s and I have never seen such loaded dice.
This gaming is a F****** waste of time and money...

I'm playing the game on Core right now and have seen no evidence of dice rolls favoring enemies so far.

[Ironslayer541]

XartaX eredeti hozzászólása:

Ironslayer541 eredeti hozzászólása:

As someone who was a DM for a campaign, I agree if your dm doesn't fudge the roles then 80% of non min-maxed characters would never live to lvl 10. If would say I have to fudge about 40 to 45% of the roles since I don't want to kill 3 PCs all the time. I mean sometimes I won't fudge the hit but ill fudge the damage just to keep the tension up, but I don't want to kill everyone all the time just because I rolled extremely well on a non important set piece. That's what the DM screen is for after all.

In my experience if they are just getting majorly f'd by bad luck then fudging is probably a good idea unless the group specifically want to play hardcore paintrain. But if they're doing stupid things like attacking something clearly out of their league, etc. and getting themselves into trouble it's better to let them face the pain and learn from it.

In either case, a good GM, if he decides to fudge, will do so in a way that the group didn't even realize it happened.

It's mostly bad luck, they don't really do anything to stupid. If they get into trouble with a friendly npc or anything like that then I let them have it, though that's very rare.

[JediLordNathan]

Sador eredeti hozzászólása:

BG3 is actively cheating in your favor and the dice in this game are perfectly fine as far as everyone who have done some testing is concerned.

Long story short: humans are absolutely awful at understanding how RNG works, they see patterns when they aren't there and think the rolls should be in their favor a LOT more than it actually should be.

Hey its nothing compared to Battle Brothers, in that game you treat any hit like is 20% lower then it actually is for you and 20% higher for the AI because the AI is prone to landing BS shots when it has zero rights to do so.

[MightyMickey88]

I love all these people talking about DMs fudging rolls. A good DM rolls in the open with modifiers / DC announced ahead of time. Players want a challenge in a dynamic world they don’t want cheating either for the DM or for the players. Otherwise there’s no reason to roll dice.

As for the game I know people post said data about the dice rolls but it’s clearly a bad random number generator. Also, the issue really lies in the inflated stats of creatures not matching their PnP counterparts. At the very minimum they should’ve included a core setting that actually matches core pathfinder. Sadly that’s the main reason the games didn’t do so well.

[XartaX]

MightyMickey88 eredeti hozzászólása:

I love all these people talking about DMs fudging rolls. A good DM rolls in the open with modifiers / DC announced ahead of time. Players want a challenge in a dynamic world they don’t want cheating either for the DM or for the players. Otherwise there’s no reason to roll dice.

As for the game I know people post said data about the dice rolls but it’s clearly a bad random number generator. Also, the issue really lies in the inflated stats of creatures not matching their PnP counterparts. At the very minimum they should’ve included a core setting that actually matches core pathfinder. Sadly that’s the main reason the games didn’t do so well.

And that's where you're 100% completely and totally wrong.

Rolling in the open with clear dcs/modifiers is incredibly bad as a GM on so many levels.

Only a completely inexperienced & fresh GM would even consider doing something like that. It completely kills any game and immersion.

Even back in the 2000's (and probably earlier too) this was basic knowledge, to the point the official DMG's essentially tells you straight up you should do it.

And the DM can't cheat. Literally nothing the DM does or can do by definition is cheating. From the official DMG:

Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can’t cheat. You’re the umpire, and what you say goes.

[Irx]

MightyMickey88 eredeti hozzászólása:

As for the game I know people post said data about the dice rolls but it’s clearly a bad random number generator.

It's not bad, this has been proven many times by people doing actual math.
Those who "feel" different are just not very bright.

Also, the issue really lies in the inflated stats of creatures not matching their PnP counterparts. At the very minimum they should’ve included a core setting that actually matches core pathfinder.

The PnP is balanced for a 4-person party, and the game has a party of 6. While I don't like the way the game is balanced, this stats bloating thing is actually the official PnP way to upscale monsters for larger player groups.

Sadly that’s the main reason the games didn’t do so well.

Nah, such things don't influence sales at all. It's mostly about PR, bugs and low budget isometric rtwp crpgs being a niche genre overall.

[Nosferatu]

MightyMickey88 eredeti hozzászólása:

As for the game I know people post said data about the dice rolls but it’s clearly a bad random number generator.

Why is it "clearly" a bad random number generator despite all the data showing otherwise?

[JustSmile]

MightyMickey88 eredeti hozzászólása:

I love all these people talking about DMs fudging rolls. A good DM rolls in the open with modifiers / DC announced ahead of time. Players want a challenge in a dynamic world they don’t want cheating either for the DM or for the players. Otherwise there’s no reason to roll dice.

Yeah nah. A good DM does not let a bad roll end the campaign unless it would be a satisfactory (or hilarious) ending. It's always a balance, but pen'n'paper RPGs are not a competition and the dice are never the ultimate arbiter of a session and its direction.

[JustSmile]

Irx eredeti hozzászólása:

The PnP is balanced for a 4-person party, and the game has a party of 6. While I don't like the way the game is balanced, this stats bloating thing is actually the official PnP way to upscale monsters for larger player groups.

Additionally pen'n'paper has actual people arbitrating the rules. Pathfinder is extremely complex and easy to break with a bit of crunching - hence it's pretty easy to build absurd broken characters who obliterate all enemies on Unfair despite average mook statblocks eclipsing rulebook deities. One of DM's roles in a campaign is to make sure rule abuse does not go beyond reason and to adapt challenges to the party's level of munchkinism. A computer can not do that - if the player goes full tard with meta minmax building Unfair is trivial, if they build for flavour and RP core can be overwhelmingly difficult. Easy modes are available for a reason.

[Ironslayer541]

MightyMickey88 eredeti hozzászólása:

I love all these people talking about DMs fudging rolls. A good DM rolls in the open with modifiers / DC announced ahead of time. Players want a challenge in a dynamic world they don’t want cheating either for the DM or for the players. Otherwise there’s no reason to roll dice.

As for the game I know people post said data about the dice rolls but it’s clearly a bad random number generator. Also, the issue really lies in the inflated stats of creatures not matching their PnP counterparts. At the very minimum they should’ve included a core setting that actually matches core pathfinder. Sadly that’s the main reason the games didn’t do so well.

Have you ever been a DM before? I have to ask since if you ever have you would know you either have to boost the stats of enemys or add more enemys (which is far more dangerous) when you have more then the standard 4 party the game itself was based around. Action economy is always more dangerous then a simple plus 2 to hit or 20 hp. I have never met good DM that open roles everything and was always honest about everything in a roll. Its far to easy to ruin a story doing that and at the end of the day its the DMs job to make an entertaining game and story. Even those who some would consider the the best DMs on the planet (aka the famous ones) don't open role all there dice.