TRUTH ABOUT BLACKWATER

[GloriouSin♪]

Pro tip from a real DM:
Drop this area entirely. Extremally, extremally poor combat design, as in you obviously allowed a 7 year old design this place cos the balance is all over the place, it doesn't fit the game and plot, poor writing, lack of puzzles, pointless fights with crap that takes forever. While also it literally does not add anything to the game, you and me know it.

And to everyone: honestly just turn on story mode for this place, it offers no complex challange it's just the same enemies as always but with +50 to AC and generally tons upon tons of various resistances making the fights slowly and poorly paced; absolutely pointless place out of so many reasons that it would take a year just to post HOW bad this place is ;p

[Cloudhunter]

Its an spoiler on the next games they produce. Because the next game is a game, located in space.
And why should it not fit in the game? Its from old Numeria, which is already mentioned in Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Read the backround story, then you would know, that this whole story is related to the starfall-incident, where some big spaceship was fallen down. The leftovers were things like you see in this level.

[Thariorn]

OPINION FROM A REAL GM
(Do i have to post this cringy selfimportant sentence verytime I say something about this game from now on?)
The Area is fine, the story implications are fine.
Enemy Design is interesting, but suffers greatly under Owlcat's designchoice to drown the player in foes (Which they seemingly warrant by giving the player exorbitant amounts of consumables).

In TT I would simply lower the amount of enemies, OBVIOUSLY adjust the stats to managable levels for my party, and add a lot more optional ways to deal with doors.

[Erei]

It's a backer dungeons. Apparently, there is another backer dungeon later in the game based on fallout, and you have a forced turn based mode fight (with infinite waves ?). Didn't play myself, but I heard it's equally bad.

I really hated that I couldn't help the paladin. I destroyed the machine and all but it doesn't change anything|

[GloriouSin♪]

Originally posted by Cloudhunter:

Its an spoiler on the next games they produce. Because the next game is a game, located in space.
And why should it not fit in the game? Its from old Numeria, which is already mentioned in Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Read the backround story, then you would know, that this whole story is related to the starfall-incident, where some big spaceship was fallen down. The leftovers were things like you see in this level.

Freeking futuristic garbage in fantasy, needles content vomited with no sense. Spaceships were not tech, they were magic, this is tech here, and from a magic ship they got tech... Blacwater and tech is just a stupid thing shoehorned in to an already overcrowded system and has no bearing on the plot of this game. And it doesn't change the fact that the area is abolutely amateurish, i can imagine how they laid stoned ass hell and were like:
"DUDE! dUUUUDDDeeee. Wee need to make a place for tomorrow, for job ya know, doood!"
"Dood i know but what do we do?"
"Dood... DUDE! Spaceships! ALIENS! WHAT IF IT WAS ALL ALIENS?!"
"Dudeeee! Ughhh but what enemies?"
"Duuud. Just slap cyber parts on daemons! And like... robots are haaard to kill man so.... so like give them +40 AC and +20 all resists!"
"AWOGHAH Aw maaaaan duuud wow that's such a cool idea duuuuuuuueeeeed!!!!"

...
Adding garbage just for the sake of adding it without consideration has poor effects on the overall finished product.

Originally posted by Thariorn:

OPINION FROM A REAL GM
(Do i have to post this cringy selfimportant sentence verytime I say something about this game from now on?)
The Area is fine, the story implications are fine.
Enemy Design is interesting, but suffers greatly under Owlcat's designchoice to drown the player in foes (Which they seemingly warrant by giving the player exorbitant amounts of consumables).

In TT I would simply lower the amount of enemies, OBVIOUSLY adjust the stats to managable levels for my party, and add a lot more optional ways to deal with doors.

1) Yes you have to write it, it was your choice in the first place, weird thing to ask, mr cringy self important that wants it both ways ;p you are not smart, you are average, deal with it.
2) Love how your post is like: "You are wrong but i agree with you." Cos you just went after me then only wrote what you could change ;p with a bit of mandatory praise to Owlcat. I think you have more of an ego problem than your realise and you project it onto other people, hence your "ih you areee soo cringeee and meee so smart" intro ;p

[Grymm]

I'm sure I hit this area way too early (Mid Act 3) lvl 12 Daring difficulty...

The fights were entirely doable, but I will agree they were tedious. Very Grindy.
If you go in with a bad mind set, like "This is how I handle all encounters" you will probably hate it. If you can find some tactics that work for your build, it's entirely possible to enjoy it.

Hundred Faces was surprisingly Weak, considering the "Trash" mobs, and some of the Loot is solid enough that you could base a character design around it.

[Atlas MK II]

You do realise Numeria is a well established part of Pathfinder right? Owlcat didn't just add it in.

[Thariorn]

Originally posted by GloriouSin♪:

2) Love how your post is like: "You are wrong but i agree with you." Cos you just went after me then only wrote what you could change ;p

Well, you wrote in the OP to "drop the area entirely", I diagreed and posted things to change about the area.

So no, I do not agree with your assement here

[Erei]

Originally posted by GloriouSin♪:

Originally posted by Cloudhunter:

Its an spoiler on the next games they produce. Because the next game is a game, located in space.
And why should it not fit in the game? Its from old Numeria, which is already mentioned in Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Read the backround story, then you would know, that this whole story is related to the starfall-incident, where some big spaceship was fallen down. The leftovers were things like you see in this level.

Freeking futuristic garbage in fantasy, needles content vomited with no sense. Spaceships were not tech, they were magic, this is tech here, and from a magic ship they got tech... Blacwater and tech is just a stupid thing shoehorned in to an already overcrowded system and has no bearing on the plot of this game. And it doesn't change the fact that the area is abolutely amateurish, i can imagine how they laid stoned ass hell and were like:
"DUDE! dUUUUDDDeeee. Wee need to make a place for tomorrow, for job ya know, doood!"
"Dood i know but what do we do?"
"Dood... DUDE! Spaceships! ALIENS! WHAT IF IT WAS ALL ALIENS?!"
"Dudeeee! Ughhh but what enemies?"
"Duuud. Just slap cyber parts on daemons! And like... robots are haaard to kill man so.... so like give them +40 AC and +20 all resists!"
"AWOGHAH Aw maaaaan duuud wow that's such a cool idea duuuuuuuueeeeed!!!!"

...
Adding garbage just for the sake of adding it without consideration has poor effects on the overall finished product.

While I'm not a fan of mixing all genre into a big bowl "because it's fun" (do you mix chocolate, guacamole and beef because they are all tasty ?), Numeria is part of the game.
I'm OK with weird reference, like the nanite ring or belt in pathfinder, but an entire dungeon ? Meh.

Still, part of the game. Apparently, each region (kinda) of pathfinder have a theme so people can pick and chose the kind of adventure they like. So, japanese stuff, spaceship and barbarian, dinos, regular fantasy tropes...

I don't mind individually. But mixed together it's weird. Like why Numeria don't send their giant robots with lazerz and nanite to nuke the demons ? They are neighbors and if the worldwound expand, they are f*** to.

[Nismu]

With all of it's troubles it was one place where my sorcerer felt really useful more than in sense of buffbot. Vinetrap landed on enemies and made fights go lot faster as melees started to hit enemies

normally it is either spells don't work unless enemy rolls really low or on easier melee/archers just destroy everything before spells have even chance to go out.

[GloriouSin♪]

Originally posted by Nismu:

With all of it's troubles it was one place where my sorcerer felt really useful more than in sense of buffbot. Vinetrap landed on enemies and made fights go lot faster as melees started to hit enemies

normally it is either spells don't work unless enemy rolls really low or on easier melee/archers just destroy everything before spells have even chance to go out.

Thats part of the problem; my Slayer rammed through the place but thats Paizo's elemental problem with balancing. Hybrid classes are just that much stronger, especially Slayer, which is one of the strongest classes in general, especially in a PC game where 50% of your enemies can't fly off; same for sorc, it's a child's run of a place.
But come here with your random adventurer team on normal, one that a game should be designed for playing and you will get REKT hard.

You don't design a game for powergamers, those are sad depressed people and giving them more psychosis will not help them, a minmaxer needs a psychiatrist not a game being made for them. Owlcat were always incredibly bad at balance and uninspired in their encounter design but Blackwater is definitely on the top of the suck list.
Cos this place really sums up to: ROBOT THE NORMAL DEAMONS WITH +40AC.

[Antonio_]

I actually liked the lore behind the area. It reminded me of the Placescape games.

Anyways, this is not really a good discussion since the OP can't take criticism without throwing a tantrum.

[GloriouSin♪]

Originally posted by Antonio_:

I actually liked the lore behind the area. It reminded me of the Placescape games.

Anyways, this is not really a good discussion since the OP can't take criticism without throwing a tantrum.

Define tantrum. Cos if it's having a strong opinion than you just shared a definite one (so super tantrum?), another person who thinks they are smart... dude really, just speak on the subject not about me. Trust me you are neither smarter than me or anyone else here, drop the attitude. Love how people attack other people and then are: "Wow he so weird to defend his opinion from my stupid garbage that spews from my mouth."
Check yourself kids.

"I actually liked the lore behind the area. It reminded me of the Placescape games."
Mandatory comment to not seem like you are not on topic ;p ok
Wow I sure like Icewind Dale 1 but 2 was much better.
Also this Antonio_ guy is clearly a lv 1 troll.

How DID this place remind you of Planescape in anyway? Numenera i would get but.. planescape?? What?? How? Where? When?
Why do people quote Planescape like it's some holy bible; Planescape was crap and you clearly never completed it since robots remind you of necromancy ;p aka you have no idea what you are talking about. Only further proves you just rammed in a mandatory senstence and proceeded to attack a random person on the net ;p

[Erei]

Originally posted by Antonio_:

I actually liked the lore behind the area. It reminded me of the Placescape games.

Anyways, this is not really a good discussion since the OP can't take criticism without throwing a tantrum.

To be fair, even outside of the lore, the area was terrible initially. Everything was immune to electricity, but had regen electricity/adamantine. The mobs also had crazy AC, boss level. They had to nerf it. It was a mage fest, your martial characters wouldn't hit much at this level.

It's still not a fun design IMO.

[GloriouSin♪]

Originally posted by Erei:

Originally posted by Antonio_:

I actually liked the lore behind the area. It reminded me of the Placescape games.

Anyways, this is not really a good discussion since the OP can't take criticism without throwing a tantrum.

To be fair, even outside of the lore, the area was terrible initially. Everything was immune to electricity, but had regen electricity/adamantine. The mobs also had crazy AC, boss level. They had to nerf it. It was a mage fest, your martial characters wouldn't hit much at this level.

It's still not a fun design IMO.

Frankly; on normal enemies here have 41+ armor; you come here around lv 12 which means your MAIN WARRIOR will have about 30% chance to hit with MAIN ATTACK which means you will have at best a 30%/5% melee hits and the enemies have ramped up HP to the moon. It's the poorest typical noob design: just smash tons of AC and HP on an enemy.
Like with their stupid idea number 2: a strong enemy is one that spams free AOE CC with high DC every turn...
It's not even combat design, that too strong of a word. This seems like some 9 year old kid got the area, monster list and just put them and modified the data after "testing" the area with a lv 40 sorc and deeming it too easy ;p
Honestly im shocked they even allowed us to use CC here; in Act 4 all enemies are resistant to all conceivable useful CC (all the enemies that matter; all the others you wont cc cos why cc something that is a 1hit mob...)

I honestly can't call that fun... it's tedious and boring to go through this area, it's a chore for the XP nothing more. I prefer to go back to KOTOR 2 Kashyyk and hear more monkeys shout at me every 0,5s if i REEEEAALY need some scifi in my life.
And like someone else said; cheese is good, chocolate is good, and hot dogs are good but you would not mix any of those 3 cos that would just end in vomiting from every hole.

[Something completely different]

Very classy OP, calling someone with a public profile a lv1 troll while having your own set to private. Very smart too, more so as you berate others intelligence and throw a tantrum right after someone mentions you'd do just that.

As for the topic, dropping areas is stupid in a released game. Better balancing is a much better idea.