Where guns and gunslingers

[Heal These Idiots™]

I hope you want to add them in DLC, yes?

[Ixal]

Loco eredeti hozzászólása:

From what I read on the AMA a few weeks ago is that they weren't added because the lead designer didn't think the class fit well into the game.

Understandably.
Even on the tabletop they are considered overpowered. Just imagine what they could do in the videogame.

[Princess Pilfer]

Herr Glaube eredeti hozzászólása:

Beermachine eredeti hozzászólása:

While I'm not against combining traditional fantasy elements with advanced technology, it's often done poorly making no logical sense.

I think you're vastly overestimating how advanced guns really are. The first prototypes showed up about 700 years ago, and China had black powder for much longer. Plate armour is more advanced technology than guns. So by your logic, a fantasy world that has no guns shouldn't have knights in shining armour, either.

The problem I have with guns and fantasy stuff is that by the time you had guns that would have been useful in a PF type situation (you know, 4-8 people parties of wandering warriors instead of giant formations) basically everything *except* guns was more or less irrelivant as the primary means of combat. It's not a coincidence that the (hilariously slow, like 1 round/minute) muskets came about in the mid 1500s and by the early 1600s plate armor useage had fallen off a cliff because it was basically not capable of reliably stopping the bullets.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Firearms have been in Pathfinder since, as mentioned earlier, 2011 with the release of Ultimate Combat for PF1e, introducing both firearms and the Gunslinger class. The Wrath of the Righteous adventure path released its first part in August 2013.

The nation of Alkenstar far to the south has been described as having guns since even before that, back when Pathfinder was a campaign setting and adventure line for DnD 3.5 and likewise the nation of Numeria (which shares a border with both the Worldwound and Mendev) has a mess of alien tech that was dropped on it millennia earlier, so laser weapons weren't unexpected (hell; an NPC in part 5 of Kingmaker had some Numerian tech on him in the original PnP version of that AP, the game just represented them as wands reflavoured to be tech).

The Guns & Gears book mentioned earlier and coming next month is a Pathfinder 2e sourcebook (not an adventure) bringing the same tech into 2e's ruleset as well as fleshing out its place in the setting more (something that Paizo never got around to in 1e beyond the aforementioned Ultimate Combat).

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Kurosu eredeti hozzászólása:

I think you might be confused. They dont use gunpowder in the lore.

This is not Pillars of Eternity

They do, there is also a gunslinger class in pathfinder.

I don't think it will be introduced though.

[Mr Fred]

Its a base class in pathfinder for sure though I got to agree I hate it and dont think it fit the setting at all.

I once played the bolt ace archetype that use a crossbow instead of a gun that is pretty much the only version I can tolerate.

[ColonoscoPete]

アンジェル eredeti hozzászólása:

Kurosu eredeti hozzászólása:

I think you might be confused. They dont use gunpowder in the lore.

They actually do. Just in a different region, like with Numerian technology.

There is even a new sourcebook announced to focus on Guns & Gears

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Guns_%26_Gears

I hate everything Numeria related lol. The whole sci-fi mixed with swords and bows, is just so jarring to me.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Beermachine eredeti hozzászólása:

While I'm not against combining traditional fantasy elements with advanced technology, it's often done poorly making no logical sense.

The best fictional universes, while having fantasy elements, are believable to how the world could have developed with those elements. Advanced technology is often added for the "cool" factor, without any consideration to all the scientific advances a society has to make to reach that point. In essence, having a world that has everyone living and fighting like it's the middle ages, while also having advanced guns / lasers makes no logical sense.

I don't believe middle earth is made a better fantasy setting if Legolas suddenly pulled out a pair of Uzi's to mow down the orcs while everyone else is wielding swords and bows :p

Sorry if this ends up as a double-post but I wanted to elaborate on how Pathfinder used it (at least in 1e, the 2e book I mentioned in my last post is fleshing out technology's place on continents like Arcadia or Tian Xia as well as its place in the Inner Sea Region).

All of the sci-fi-grade tech is from Numeria, which shares borders with Mendev, a bit of the Worldwound, Ustalav, the River Kingdoms, and Brevoy. The alien starship it was all aboard crash-landed there around nine thousand years ago. The Kellid people native to the area had taboos about the fragments of the wreck so never delved into them. First actual exploration of them didn't happen until 4308 when one of the first Pathfinders petitioned Numeria's ruler to explore them (and he didn't actually get that permission for another ten years). The Technic League formed in 4501 to actually exploit the ruins and gained entry into Silver Mount (the largest chunk of the ship) in 4512, where they exploited it purely for their own gain in taking control of Numeria. Manufacturing new instances of the tech was difficult as the only tools capable of doing it were also within the wreck - there was just too great a gap between the technological understanding the League had and what the technology required.

The Technic League was overthrown in 4716, three years after the events of Wrath of the Righteous and it's only now that the technology might spread beyond Numeria's borders. But, even then, the remnants of the Technic League are more interested in peddling the tech and their expertise to various warlords and tribal chiefs within Numeria that's pushing the whole region closer to civil war (so most of the people with the tech at hand is more interested in keeping it for themselves in-case a civil war kicks off, even if they only plan to use it for their own defence).

As for how Alkenstar's dwarven founders designed guns - that whole regions, known as the Mana Wastes, is a region where magic doesn't work properly thanks to the two mage-heavy nations to its north and south (Nex and Geb) going to war. What's now the Mana Wastes was the No Man's Land between them and was permanently warped and twisted by the magic both nations unleashed on each other so magic just doesn't work reliably there. Cue the locals developing something more reliable for long-range combat beyond bows and crossbows.

[joeking141]

Ixal eredeti hozzászólása:

The "Guys with guns" are on the other side of the continent. And at least in the 1st edition of Pathfinder which Owlcat uses guns were not widespread (that only comes now).
When they show up in Kingmaker they only sell you repeating crossbows and not guns either.

Sure, but as a counterpoint. The Kitsune are from a completely different continent altogether. The Worldwound attracts people from across the planet, there's a logical argument to be made for pretty much any character class to head there.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

joeking141 eredeti hozzászólása:

Ixal eredeti hozzászólása:

The "Guys with guns" are on the other side of the continent. And at least in the 1st edition of Pathfinder which Owlcat uses guns were not widespread (that only comes now).
When they show up in Kingmaker they only sell you repeating crossbows and not guns either.

Sure, but as a counterpoint. The Kitsune are from a completely different continent altogether. The Worldwound attracts people from across the planet, there's a logical argument to be made for pretty much any character class to head there.

True - Tian Xia (the continent that kitsune are from) is just about on the other side of the planet from Avistan (the continent that WotR is on). And it's kind of amusing when you realise that a gunslinger packing a laser rifle has an easier time making his way into the Fifth Crusade than one with a blackpowder musket, if only because the former only has to cross one border, not make an intercontinental trip.

[Heal These Idiots™]

Plate Armor from 16th century - fits the mediaval pathfinder
Black powder - bad and illogical, too futuristic
xDDDD

[Takichi]

Heal These Idiots™ eredeti hozzászólása:

Plate Armor from 16th century - fits the mediaval pathfinder
Black powder - bad and illogical, too futuristic
xDDDD

Nobody ever said that?
I mean yeah i already understand u suck at Pathfinder and the Game and need the OP Class to get Storymode done.... But that doesnt execusses your false accusaitons all the time xD espacialy without the QUote of the Person you are meant to talk to ;)


Gunsliger didnt made it into the Game, because it wasnt suited for THIS SPECIFIC Adventure. It would change the whole Balance of the Game and therefore would need to do a complete new Balance.

[Serendipitous]

Beermachine eredeti hozzászólása:

The best fictional universes, while having fantasy elements, are believable to how the world could have developed with those elements. Advanced technology is often added for the "cool" factor, without any consideration to all the scientific advances a society has to make to reach that point. In essence, having a world that has everyone living and fighting like it's the middle ages, while also having advanced guns / lasers makes no logical sense.

Well, idealism is default world view in modern society for many reasons. The idea that structure of society depends on development of productive forces and not because someone got a great idea, is surprisingly hard to grasp for many people and even harder to actually internalize it and start applying to thought process. Most people don't understand that you can't build guns and steam engines while having scientific and engineering level of medieval society with knights

[アンジェル]

Procrastinating Gamer eredeti hozzászólása:

Beermachine eredeti hozzászólása:

While I'm not against combining traditional fantasy elements with advanced technology, it's often done poorly making no logical sense.

The best fictional universes, while having fantasy elements, are believable to how the world could have developed with those elements. Advanced technology is often added for the "cool" factor, without any consideration to all the scientific advances a society has to make to reach that point. In essence, having a world that has everyone living and fighting like it's the middle ages, while also having advanced guns / lasers makes no logical sense.

I don't believe middle earth is made a better fantasy setting if Legolas suddenly pulled out a pair of Uzi's to mow down the orcs while everyone else is wielding swords and bows :p

Sorry if this ends up as a double-post but I wanted to elaborate on how Pathfinder used it (at least in 1e, the 2e book I mentioned in my last post is fleshing out technology's place on continents like Arcadia or Tian Xia as well as its place in the Inner Sea Region).

All of the sci-fi-grade tech is from Numeria, which shares borders with Mendev, a bit of the Worldwound, Ustalav, the River Kingdoms, and Brevoy. The alien starship it was all aboard crash-landed there around nine thousand years ago. The Kellid people native to the area had taboos about the fragments of the wreck so never delved into them. First actual exploration of them didn't happen until 4308 when one of the first Pathfinders petitioned Numeria's ruler to explore them (and he didn't actually get that permission for another ten years). The Technic League formed in 4501 to actually exploit the ruins and gained entry into Silver Mount (the largest chunk of the ship) in 4512, where they exploited it purely for their own gain in taking control of Numeria. Manufacturing new instances of the tech was difficult as the only tools capable of doing it were also within the wreck - there was just too great a gap between the technological understanding the League had and what the technology required.

The Technic League was overthrown in 4716, three years after the events of Wrath of the Righteous and it's only now that the technology might spread beyond Numeria's borders. But, even then, the remnants of the Technic League are more interested in peddling the tech and their expertise to various warlords and tribal chiefs within Numeria that's pushing the whole region closer to civil war (so most of the people with the tech at hand is more interested in keeping it for themselves in-case a civil war kicks off, even if they only plan to use it for their own defence).

As for how Alkenstar's dwarven founders designed guns - that whole regions, known as the Mana Wastes, is a region where magic doesn't work properly thanks to the two mage-heavy nations to its north and south (Nex and Geb) going to war. What's now the Mana Wastes was the No Man's Land between them and was permanently warped and twisted by the magic both nations unleashed on each other so magic just doesn't work reliably there. Cue the locals developing something more reliable for long-range combat beyond bows and crossbows.

In my opinion background knowledge like this makes guns and high tech acceptable. It is a logical conclusion which has been retold in many fantasy stories over and over again, in which many fantasy worlds have ancient and yet futuristic technology.

Alone to keep in mind that there is magic, is a perfect reasoning why technology is not as advanced as they could be in a fantasy world. Even more when deities are involved, who eventually are even the reason why futuristic technologies are banned or buried by them.

Black powder firearms in a world where alchemists are a class? It leads inevitably to the question why not? Most likely because of magic there was never a reason to develope them, but that does not mean they cannot co-exist.

And if you want to follow the path of many fantasy stories lore: very advanced technologies can be undistinguishable from magic. Often enough nowadays fantasy worlds are built around self-replicating nanobots which are supposed to heal a dead world from a long forgotten catastrophe, by supporting the descendants of people with "magic" - which are basically sciencetific anomalies created by nanobots in the air.

Imagine dwarves as descendants of people who lived too long into bunkers until they develope into dwarves. Or elves are proficient with magic because they have long ears which are originally bioengineered antennas for the nanobots...

[JonWoo]

They think they don't fit in the setting. Not really sure why, they have things from the other side of the world and even things from just as far away as places that mass produce firearms and the like.

[Overlard]

Loco eredeti hozzászólása:

From what I read on the AMA a few weeks ago is that they weren't added because the lead designer didn't think the class fit well into the game.

That answer would have aged better if Blackwater didn't exist in game, looking straight out of Wasteland.