Boss fights, good or bad, for or against.

[GK Chandler]

I'd like to get a sense from people whether they love the boss battles at the end of games like this, whether the difficult to conquer boss fights add something to the game or whether some alternative ending would be equally satisfying. Would a more modest boss fight serve the purpose, something that doesn't seem so impossible?

I've given up on games before, having reached a boss fight, because the technique necessary to defeat the enemy is so obscure, or requires just the right move at just the right time. The rest of the game I've enjoyed immensely until that point. Frankly, I could do without it. If the game is one of constant, high tension battles, I might regard it as relevant, but very often the scale of the boss fight seems out of place.

So, what's your take?

[Furry Chipmunk]

There are not many boss fights in Requiem... 😞

[kristijan.123]

from what I understand, you are asking whether or not the boss fights in requiem are using complex mechanics.
Well I will tell you that no, they dont, in fact boss fights themselves are very simple, for the most part I found the best strategy to be run-hide-strike-repeat, unless you are in open space and can't hide, but even then outmanuvering the enemy seems to be thee way to go.

whether or not they are good, I would say, they serve the purpose, which is making the game tenser, and solidifying the story, they could make certain aspects better, but they serve the purpose of that regardless, all in all, they are good enough.

[kangirigungi]

I generally like games that are heavy on story, and also games where you primarily have to use your brain (like puzzle, tactics, strategy; although I'm not that good in the last one). However, I don't like skill based game, and especially one that requires quick reflexes. I get annoyed quickly by those.

So not surprisingly, I love this game at large. The tactical sequences and the parts where I can just explore are great. However, I find the boss fights rather annoying. Even though they are by no means difficult, as even I could finish most of them in relatively few tries, they do require some trial and error to figure out where to look and when, and also some precision timing.

The most annoying part is when the Count chases you and you get stuck in a storeroom and you have to open a portcullis with a really loud crank. The first time I played, it took me a lot of tries, because I often got lost (turns out that there are two cranks, so you have to choose one and only push that, otherwise you're just wasting your time) but also because that sequence requires some really good timing. Second time, I got annoyed so much that I stopped playing, thinking that I won't even finish it as I already know the story and it's mostly boss fights after that anyway. Nevertheless, I returned a week later and finished a sequence in about 3 tries. The trick is to crank until the last possible moment, run away, lure the Count into a room and lock him away, then finish cranking; the important part is to lure him into the room opposite to the portcullis you open, otherwise he'll be right behind you and the exit.

[kangirigungi]

Originally posted by Furry Chipmunk:

There are not many boss fights in Requiem... 😞

It depends on how you define boss fights. Do those sequences where you have to kill waves of enemies constitute as boss fights? I think they do, because they are significantly more difficult than the rest of the game. If so, there are actually more boss fights than in Innocence. That game has 3 classic boss sequences: Conrad, Sir Nicholas, and the final battle against Vitalis. This one has only two such classic boss battles where you face off a single enemy: the Beast, which is really simple, just like Conrad but you have more options to deal with him, and the part in the storeroom against the Count that I mentioned in my previous post. However, there are more kinds of fight scenes. There are the ones where you have to run from a hoard of rats (I find them rather unimaginative after some time btw.) or soldiers, which might or might not constitute as boss fights. Then there are the sequences with the waves of enemies, which I definitely consider boss fights, and there are several in the game, especially near the end where there are 3 of them in relatively quick succession. And, of course, there is the final sequence, but that's rather unlike the final boss in Innocence too.

[kristijan.123]

Originally posted by kangirigungi:

Originally posted by Furry Chipmunk:

There are not many boss fights in Requiem... 😞

It depends on how you define boss fights. Do those sequences where you have to kill waves of enemies constitute as boss fights? I think they do, because they are significantly more difficult than the rest of the game. If so, there are actually more boss fights than in Innocence. That game has 3 classic boss sequences: Conrad, Sir Nicholas, and the final battle against Vitalis. This one has only two such classic boss battles where you face off a single enemy: the Beast, which is really simple, just like Conrad but you have more options to deal with him, and the part in the storeroom against the Count that I mentioned in my previous post. However, there are more kinds of fight scenes. There are the ones where you have to run from a hoard of rats (I find them rather unimaginative after some time btw.) or soldiers, which might or might not constitute as boss fights. Then there are the sequences with the waves of enemies, which I definitely consider boss fights, and there are several in the game, especially near the end where there are 3 of them in relatively quick succession. And, of course, there is the final sequence, but that's rather unlike the final boss in Innocence too.

Technically, I wouldn't call the storeroom scene a "boss fight", since there is no actuall fighting, I mean, you can try, but it won't end well, yes you can classify outsmarting the boss, a "boss fight", but for me, it's just a puzzle scene, the latter scene with hordes of soldiers comming at you as Arnoud deals with Victor, that is a boss fight

[GK Chandler]

Thanks, all, for the clarification for this game. I'd read comments from one player who was particularly frustrated by what he described as a boss fight in this game. I didn't want to reach another such interaction and feel like it was difficult to beat. I'm getting too long in the tooth to want to spend hours trying to defeat a single bad guy. Too many other things to do with my time. Thanks also for the clues as to how to deal with it. Very useful. I never mind some handy hints ;-)

[kangirigungi]

Originally posted by kristijan.123:

Technically, I wouldn't call the storeroom scene a "boss fight", since there is no actuall fighting, I mean, you can try, but it won't end well, yes you can classify outsmarting the boss, a "boss fight", but for me, it's just a puzzle scene, the latter scene with hordes of soldiers comming at you as Arnoud deals with Victor, that is a boss fight

Or, if you look at it another way, it's a fight scene, just one you cannot win so you have to run away. It's definitely more than a puzzle scene though, more like an action/puzzle scene. You need to figure out what you have to do, but you also have to do it right and fast. Earlier, at the docks of the first town, where you have to move that bridge, where the soldier helps you. Now that's a real puzzle scene.

But you know what? It's no longer a '80s platformer where you enter a room, the music changes, and then you face off a huge enemy that shoots at you from multiple guns. The term "boss" has less meaning here. There are just different kinds of scenes, some stealth, some action, some puzzle, while others a combination of these. And any of them easier than in a game focused on just one of these elements. Though to be fair, Innocence has clearly defined bosses. Requiem does not.

[LT. Dan's Legs]

Lol, I took the Beast out in ten seconds; trapped him near a jar and took off his armour. I laughed out loud when the cut scene triggered. It would have been cooler if the boss fights were more scripted, or were even relatively challenging like Sir Nicholas and Vitalis from part one. Yet another reason in my book as why Requiem disappoints; that Beast fight was unforgivably comical.

Also, I really hate QTEs. This game lost points with me when I saw the prompts. Remember how Innocence did not have to rely on crap like that? Gosh, I do.

[GK Chandler]

QTEs drive me crazy. Basically learn, practice, perfect, succeed. Tomb Raider is guilty of this, though not to a great degree, though timing is everything when faced with it.

[kristijan.123]

Originally posted by kangirigungi:

Originally posted by kristijan.123:

Technically, I wouldn't call the storeroom scene a "boss fight", since there is no actuall fighting, I mean, you can try, but it won't end well, yes you can classify outsmarting the boss, a "boss fight", but for me, it's just a puzzle scene, the latter scene with hordes of soldiers comming at you as Arnoud deals with Victor, that is a boss fight

Or, if you look at it another way, it's a fight scene, just one you cannot win so you have to run away. It's definitely more than a puzzle scene though, more like an action/puzzle scene. You need to figure out what you have to do, but you also have to do it right and fast. Earlier, at the docks of the first town, where you have to move that bridge, where the soldier helps you. Now that's a real puzzle scene.

But you know what? It's no longer a '80s platformer where you enter a room, the music changes, and then you face off a huge enemy that shoots at you from multiple guns. The term "boss" has less meaning here. There are just different kinds of scenes, some stealth, some action, some puzzle, while others a combination of these. And any of them easier than in a game focused on just one of these elements. Though to be fair, Innocence has clearly defined bosses. Requiem does not.

you are right, but the term "boss fight" is a very looselly used term, from how I see it, by definition, a boss fight should be exactlly that, a fight, not a puzzle, thinking on how to outsmart the enemy without actually fighting him, that is a puzzle. I am not saying that this is bad, or that, boss fights should be by '80s model, I understand things got way forward, but still that's not a problem, the problem is the term is used to describe any interaction with the antagonist, regardless of what type of interaction that is, unless it's a dialogue, but that usually comes before a boss fight, so it's still considered a boss fight.

it's not the games that need to change, it's the term.

[LT. Dan's Legs]

Originally posted by GK Chandler:

QTEs drive me crazy. Basically learn, practice, perfect, succeed. Tomb Raider is guilty of this, though not to a great degree, though timing is everything when faced with it.

QTEs are such a cop out on showing your skills as a gamer. It really takes me out of the immersion.

[Furry Chipmunk]

Originally posted by TomOfTheWarband:

Lol, I took the Beast out in ten seconds; trapped him near a jar and took off his armour. I laughed out loud when the cut scene triggered.

I had the same - I didn't know what's happening it was just *boom* *boom* and a cut scene.

[kangirigungi]

QTEs are usually a sign that the game designers tried to make a challenging scene but failed to come up with a good game mechanic. Fortunately, this game doesn't have too much of that (the one where you dodge an enemy then use a QTE to stab them is actually an appropriate use of the mechanic, the scripted ones are the bad ones), and there are actually more challenging scenes.

The good thing is that besides the stock mechanics that appear in several scenes, such as sneaking around with or without the possibility to kill enemies, running away from rats or other enemies, fighting enemies, etc., there are some scenes with unique game mechanics. These are, for example, the aforementioned storeroom scene or the entire ending. Then there are some scenes where the creators failed to come up with something better and used QTEs. These could as well as be cutscenes. For example, the part where wounded Amicia fights the Count with a sword. You have to succeed in the QTEs or die, but you lose anyway so giving it interactivity doesn't add much to the game. Maybe they didn't want to make such a long cutscene, given there are already cutscenes at that part, dunno. But anyway, gameplay-wise, that scene is a filler. Story-wise, it's perfectly good.

[LT. Dan's Legs]

Originally posted by kangirigungi:

QTEs are usually a sign that the game designers tried to make a challenging scene but failed to come up with a good game mechanic. Fortunately, this game doesn't have too much of that (the one where you dodge an enemy then use a QTE to stab them is actually an appropriate use of the mechanic, the scripted ones are the bad ones), and there are actually more challenging scenes.

The good thing is that besides the stock mechanics that appear in several scenes, such as sneaking around with or without the possibility to kill enemies, running away from rats or other enemies, fighting enemies, etc., there are some scenes with unique game mechanics. These are, for example, the aforementioned storeroom scene or the entire ending. Then there are some scenes where the creators failed to come up with something better and used QTEs. These could as well as be cutscenes. For example, the part where wounded Amicia fights the Count with a sword. You have to succeed in the QTEs or die, but you lose anyway so giving it interactivity doesn't add much to the game. Maybe they didn't want to make such a long cutscene, given there are already cutscenes at that part, dunno. But anyway, gameplay-wise, that scene is a filler. Story-wise, it's perfectly good.

As someone who sat through the mess that was Metal Gear Solid 4, a slightly longer cut scene would have been better. I could have been able to focus on the emotion of the scene, rather than wondering if I was to press X or O. My personal opinion though; the button mashing ruins escapism, and makes a serious moment feel goofy and boring.

[Prisoner 849]

My thoughts on the two games were:
In Innocence the boss fights kind of spoiled the game for me. I was enjoying the story and light puzzles, so to have to grind at working out how to get past a boss character to carry on spoiled it somewhat. There were only 3 that I recall. The first in the village was easy, Nicolas was a slog, and the Grand Inquisitor at the end was somewhat frustrating because the pattern of what to do was easy to work out but bad luck would get in the way sometimes.

Requiem seemed a little more balanced. The heavy guard near the start was silly as without knowing that you had to get him from behind I imagine people could waste a lot of time on that. If you know what to do it takes seconds, but if you don't get it straight away you can spend ages trying to get the positions right at the risk of running out of ammo. The rest of the game mostly relied on waves of enemies, which was a little more realistic than some guy in armour who just won't die despite being engulfed in fire multiple times. However, they were still a slog, especially at the end of the game on the beach where I didn't noticed anything to suggest it was the end of the game. The "escape an angry bad guy" scenes were a little more interesting, and nowhere near as annoying as the escape runs in something like Ori.

Overall, I didn't much like the "boss" sections, however they were presented, as I was more interested in working through the story, the puzzles and stealth aspects.