Debating starting comp and Urtuk role

[rassen]

I know this matter has been brought up here and there but I would like your opinions on all the Human starting class regarding the following matter (Below-Desolation Difficulty)

1. Urtuk as Assassin: Is this ideal considering Scavenger Assassin is just a better version ?
2. Urtuk as Bloodknight vs Berserker: I keep reading conflicting opinions on BK being trash vs BK being oped/meta, so how is BK/Berserker as Urtuk and which one is it ?
3. Urtuk as Hunter is gimped vs as melee dps - this doesn't make sense to me, I played Urtuk as Hunter and find the mutators fit in pretty well (fast thinking, lyncher etc) also wouldn't it make sense to run Urtuk as ranged considering his HP penalty, range class would be safer than melee ?
4. Urtuk as monk: Again, so many conflicting opinions, I know monk is pretty bad ass, can flip, can position, can stun/slow, can dps with lethal blow, however is he still useful with so many enemies in end game with stalwart ? And what monk benefit from Urtuk's special ?
5. Footman/Spearman/Guardian: Considering the one you can obtain through mission/fortress later are just simply superior with the massive 50% more armor from Soldier perk, is there any merits starting with these guys aside from the fact that you need a tank for early game ?

Honestly it's really strange to see so little info available on reddit/steam sub, so many recent changes and so little discussion plus the wiki page is half finished (I'm not even sure it is updated) this game definitely deserve more.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by rassen:

Honestly it's really strange to see so little info available on reddit/steam sub, so many recent changes and so little discussion plus the wiki page is half finished (I'm not even sure it is updated) this game definitely deserve more.

Amen ;(

[UnluckyNoob]

Note that I play desolation so I can only guess how things going below it.
1. Assassin is good at zone 1, but is not that good later. He probably can still attack using full stamina, but berserker will do the same. Also berserker use real weapon and have way better durability. Crit traps are great, but who will crit if your Urtuk is assassin?
2. Berserker is good on desolation. And when I tried BK he ended his days on the bench. BK have best weapon in the game but all his mutators are garbage. He also have mansplitter and jump attack increasing damage. So you somehow should set up him to deal huge damage in single hit. It's hard on desolation with its focus issues. But in easier difficulties BK may be really good. Berserker, on the other hand, may always deal his 5-6 attacks/turn and thus generate enough focus to keep his duelyst running. He was nerfed in recent patch (as well as his duelyst focus), but I think he is still good.
3. Range classes do not deal enough damage(on desolation). Also hunter is awful ranged class with no good mutators. Urtuk HP penalty may be countered by single HP mutator/relic, so you get 4 good mutators at the cost of one. For example you may pick overdose as a part or Urtuk mutators and it will completely counter Urtuk HP penalty.
4. Monk is good on his own without Urtuk mutations. He can jump around and stun, that's enough. Also there are always targets for his flip.
5. No. All these classes are not too good even with soldier perk. And support Urtuk is a waste anyway.

Devs hate steam. They run their Utruk community on the Discord.

[drake_hound]

1 Urtuk as assassins hunter whatever there is nothing wrong with them.
But if you want total optimisation and meta. you are going for the MAX benefit that you can cream into a character . it is a bit like Beast Start where Flesh Beast and Marsh Swamper.. can have 8-12 cost and different Mutations .. some of them are like god like combinations.
reflextive skin god-blessing both bleeding and poison sense (on normal hit not critical)
The question is more Is the max benefit needed to play this game.
No not really.. it is the fun stuff to do when you understand the game combination and most of all your favorite preferences of mutators.

It is finding out the combination yourself... that makes the game fun.
I can give you OP combination that makes even villagers playable.
Example Armor smith Critical counter strike Pushing Strike and Immobilising strike.
Makes you able to hold any choke point without being swamped and making the AI look stupid. if they don't have stalwart. even if they do have stalwart. they are immobilised so can't be lightfoot swapped out. for offensive use , just use Patience.

2 Both are very viable. Bloodknight no longer keels over cause of repose and it has mansplitter.
And Berserker you take more for Stun immunity.. stalwart making you having a solid blocker that you do not have to worry so much about positioning.

3 Urtuk hunter isn't gimped. but people call stuff gimped when they consider what could be possible in the PAST Early Access meta build. where they could stack up damage to heavens.
None of the range are gimped. but they are no longer Swiss Army knives. cause of deflectors. once you run into forsaken spearman. your hunter DPS is 0 unless you can get them out of breath .. (that is possible by moving letting them preemptive strike and first strike heavy amour people)

4 Monk is the most balanced class to play.. infact even without FLIP the ability to leap around thus giving others critical, or able to stun people cause of leap, it isn't lethal blow. it is stunning blow. the stun does much more then being Lethal :P but people loves BIG DAMAGE NUMBERS .. but the stunned target gives others ability to AUTO CRITICAL stunned target.
FLIP still works to save your team members as long they are not taunted or engaged. consider somebody immobilised and going to die. use the FLIP to save him out of harmsway.

5 That is again a MIN MAX question , does it bother you so much .. getting armor expertise isn't easy anyway.

Example you have overdose... in the first revision of OVERDOSE some people consider OP.
But it was CRAP .. with +60% Max health but everyturn you lose 10% of MAX HP .
Complaintes make Overdose better. that David instead of lose 10% MAX HP everyturn into lose 10% current HP ... that wasn't enough still , so it stop losing hp at 50% MAX HP .
Thus makes it viable. but people who came late in the game think it was Best Mutator...
Well yeah if mutator like flesh eaters Flagrant and others get nerfed. and OVERDOSE gets buffed.. offcourse it becomes OP .. but if OVERDOSE wasn't buffed. it was still CRAP to put into a slot. consider level 10 strong body gives 7% less hp without any penalty :P

So you see a lot of POST that are brought back. are from that time period. where Blood Knight wasn't viable in desolation difficulty. (desolation your healing is nerfed. that made LEECH useless)

This game is about finding combo's .. playing the game. find tactical solutions aside from offering ability to min max your heart out.
I see a lot of people whining about Nerfs. but they don't realise the monsters also get nerfed. in the PAST everything past map 2 had STALWART SHATTERPROOF whatever immunity.. atleast nowadays most monsters even elites. have 1 or more weakness.
Aside from nobody can resist it RAM :P

[rassen]

Originally posted by drake_hound:

1 Urtuk as assassins hunter whatever there is nothing wrong with them.
But if you want total optimisation and meta. you are going for the MAX benefit that you can cream into a character . it is a bit like Beast Start where Flesh Beast and Marsh Swamper.. can have 8-12 cost and different Mutations .. some of them are like god like combinations.
reflextive skin god-blessing both bleeding and poison sense (on normal hit not critical)
The question is more Is the max benefit needed to play this game.
No not really.. it is the fun stuff to do when you understand the game combination and most of all your favorite preferences of mutators.

It is finding out the combination yourself... that makes the game fun.
I can give you OP combination that makes even villagers playable.
Example Armor smith Critical counter strike Pushing Strike and Immobilising strike.
Makes you able to hold any choke point without being swamped and making the AI look stupid. if they don't have stalwart. even if they do have stalwart. they are immobilised so can't be lightfoot swapped out. for offensive use , just use Patience.

2 Both are very viable. Bloodknight no longer keels over cause of repose and it has mansplitter.
And Berserker you take more for Stun immunity.. stalwart making you having a solid blocker that you do not have to worry so much about positioning.

3 Urtuk hunter isn't gimped. but people call stuff gimped when they consider what could be possible in the PAST Early Access meta build. where they could stack up damage to heavens.
None of the range are gimped. but they are no longer Swiss Army knives. cause of deflectors. once you run into forsaken spearman. your hunter DPS is 0 unless you can get them out of breath .. (that is possible by moving letting them preemptive strike and first strike heavy amour people)

4 Monk is the most balanced class to play.. infact even without FLIP the ability to leap around thus giving others critical, or able to stun people cause of leap, it isn't lethal blow. it is stunning blow. the stun does much more then being Lethal :P but people loves BIG DAMAGE NUMBERS .. but the stunned target gives others ability to AUTO CRITICAL stunned target.
FLIP still works to save your team members as long they are not taunted or engaged. consider somebody immobilised and going to die. use the FLIP to save him out of harmsway.

5 That is again a MIN MAX question , does it bother you so much .. getting armor expertise isn't easy anyway.

Example you have overdose... in the first revision of OVERDOSE some people consider OP.
But it was CRAP .. with +60% Max health but everyturn you lose 10% of MAX HP .
Complaintes make Overdose better. that David instead of lose 10% MAX HP everyturn into lose 10% current HP ... that wasn't enough still , so it stop losing hp at 50% MAX HP .
Thus makes it viable. but people who came late in the game think it was Best Mutator...
Well yeah if mutator like flesh eaters Flagrant and others get nerfed. and OVERDOSE gets buffed.. offcourse it becomes OP .. but if OVERDOSE wasn't buffed. it was still CRAP to put into a slot. consider level 10 strong body gives 7% less hp without any penalty :P

So you see a lot of POST that are brought back. are from that time period. where Blood Knight wasn't viable in desolation difficulty. (desolation your healing is nerfed. that made LEECH useless)

This game is about finding combo's .. playing the game. find tactical solutions aside from offering ability to min max your heart out.
I see a lot of people whining about Nerfs. but they don't realise the monsters also get nerfed. in the PAST everything past map 2 had STALWART SHATTERPROOF whatever immunity.. atleast nowadays most monsters even elites. have 1 or more weakness.
Aside from nobody can resist it RAM :P

Thanks! I like to understand the reasoning behind Min-max/beta first before going my own way.

I find leveling Soldier perk pretty easy actually since I reset stat, having super low vit + brilliance mind (-25%) plus 2 other -10% turn the guy hp to less than 400. Anything hit him will contribute toward the perk progress. I'm sticking a priest behind him and have like him tanking 2-3 guys (even better, immobilized them so they have no choice but hitting the guy). Every battle I get like 10-15% progress (50% max) so it's get done in no time at all. Maybe this only work for lower difficulty but it's not too hard to farm considering 50% more armor is pretty decent.

Another question, do you go STR at all or stick with AGI ? It seem having the stat to hit many times in a row is way better than one big hit ? Also do you go CON at all or just level them on Focus Generator (can you give me an example of good Focus Generator while we are at it)

[ianming]

Originally posted by drake_hound:

1 Urtuk as assassins hunter whatever there is nothing wrong with them.
But if you want total optimisation and meta. you are going for the MAX benefit that you can cream into a character . it is a bit like Beast Start where Flesh Beast and Marsh Swamper.. can have 8-12 cost and different Mutations .. some of them are like god like combinations.
reflextive skin god-blessing both bleeding and poison sense (on normal hit not critical)
The question is more Is the max benefit needed to play this game.
No not really.. it is the fun stuff to do when you understand the game combination and most of all your favorite preferences of mutators.

It is finding out the combination yourself... that makes the game fun.
I can give you OP combination that makes even villagers playable.
Example Armor smith Critical counter strike Pushing Strike and Immobilising strike.
Makes you able to hold any choke point without being swamped and making the AI look stupid. if they don't have stalwart. even if they do have stalwart. they are immobilised so can't be lightfoot swapped out. for offensive use , just use Patience.

2 Both are very viable. Bloodknight no longer keels over cause of repose and it has mansplitter.
And Berserker you take more for Stun immunity.. stalwart making you having a solid blocker that you do not have to worry so much about positioning.

3 Urtuk hunter isn't gimped. but people call stuff gimped when they consider what could be possible in the PAST Early Access meta build. where they could stack up damage to heavens.
None of the range are gimped. but they are no longer Swiss Army knives. cause of deflectors. once you run into forsaken spearman. your hunter DPS is 0 unless you can get them out of breath .. (that is possible by moving letting them preemptive strike and first strike heavy amour people)

4 Monk is the most balanced class to play.. infact even without FLIP the ability to leap around thus giving others critical, or able to stun people cause of leap, it isn't lethal blow. it is stunning blow. the stun does much more then being Lethal :P but people loves BIG DAMAGE NUMBERS .. but the stunned target gives others ability to AUTO CRITICAL stunned target.
FLIP still works to save your team members as long they are not taunted or engaged. consider somebody immobilised and going to die. use the FLIP to save him out of harmsway.

5 That is again a MIN MAX question , does it bother you so much .. getting armor expertise isn't easy anyway.

Example you have overdose... in the first revision of OVERDOSE some people consider OP.
But it was CRAP .. with +60% Max health but everyturn you lose 10% of MAX HP .
Complaintes make Overdose better. that David instead of lose 10% MAX HP everyturn into lose 10% current HP ... that wasn't enough still , so it stop losing hp at 50% MAX HP .
Thus makes it viable. but people who came late in the game think it was Best Mutator...
Well yeah if mutator like flesh eaters Flagrant and others get nerfed. and OVERDOSE gets buffed.. offcourse it becomes OP .. but if OVERDOSE wasn't buffed. it was still CRAP to put into a slot. consider level 10 strong body gives 7% less hp without any penalty :P

So you see a lot of POST that are brought back. are from that time period. where Blood Knight wasn't viable in desolation difficulty. (desolation your healing is nerfed. that made LEECH useless)

This game is about finding combo's .. playing the game. find tactical solutions aside from offering ability to min max your heart out.
I see a lot of people whining about Nerfs. but they don't realise the monsters also get nerfed. in the PAST everything past map 2 had STALWART SHATTERPROOF whatever immunity.. atleast nowadays most monsters even elites. have 1 or more weakness.
Aside from nobody can resist it RAM :P

Agree, it's easy to overlook buffs and only focus on the nerfs. Ranged classes on desolation are far from useless, you can simply check that out by watching desolation players streaming Urtuk how they use 1-2 ranged classes.

[rassen]

Originally posted by UnluckyNoob:

Note that I play desolation so I can only guess how things going below it.
1. Assassin is good at zone 1, but is not that good later. He probably can still attack using full stamina, but berserker will do the same. Also berserker use real weapon and have way better durability. Crit traps are great, but who will crit if your Urtuk is assassin?
2. Berserker is good on desolation. And when I tried BK he ended his days on the bench. BK have best weapon in the game but all his mutators are garbage. He also have mansplitter and jump attack increasing damage. So you somehow should set up him to deal huge damage in single hit. It's hard on desolation with its focus issues. But in easier difficulties BK may be really good. Berserker, on the other hand, may always deal his 5-6 attacks/turn and thus generate enough focus to keep his duelyst running. He was nerfed in recent patch (as well as his duelyst focus), but I think he is still good.
3. Range classes do not deal enough damage(on desolation). Also hunter is awful ranged class with no good mutators. Urtuk HP penalty may be countered by single HP mutator/relic, so you get 4 good mutators at the cost of one. For example you may pick overdose as a part or Urtuk mutators and it will completely counter Urtuk HP penalty.
4. Monk is good on his own without Urtuk mutations. He can jump around and stun, that's enough. Also there are always targets for his flip.
5. No. All these classes are not too good even with soldier perk. And support Urtuk is a waste anyway.

Devs hate steam. They run their Utruk community on the Discord.

I'm a bit confused, can you elaborate further, Berserker can hit many times but so does Hunter with ranged support, what make him so bad in dealing damage ? Especially Hunter can attack from elevation advantage and have presence cover in a wide area due to his range advantage.

So do you ditch range all together or still run Javelinier ? What is your strategy for fortress ?

[UnluckyNoob]

Originally posted by rassen:

I'm a bit confused, can you elaborate further, Berserker can hit many times but so does Hunter with ranged support, what make him so bad in dealing damage ? Especially Hunter can attack from elevation advantage and have presence cover in a wide area due to his range advantage.

So do you ditch range all together or still run Javelinier ? What is your strategy for fortress ?

Hunter can't hit that much with ranged support because of line of sight issues. Shooting from highground is nice, but you rarely have any.

I run javelinier while bleeding/poison are good. After that I use Amos and sometimes Victor. Do you need any strategy for fortress? Just move forward and kill them all.

This time I'm trying to make old school glass cannon Urtuk without delirium from forsaken. But it is too early to make conclusions. Currently he is too glass without angel's pact and aegis.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by UnluckyNoob:

Originally posted by rassen:

I'm a bit confused, can you elaborate further, Berserker can hit many times but so does Hunter with ranged support, what make him so bad in dealing damage ? Especially Hunter can attack from elevation advantage and have presence cover in a wide area due to his range advantage.

So do you ditch range all together or still run Javelinier ? What is your strategy for fortress ?

Hunter can't hit that much with ranged support because of line of sight issues. Shooting from highground is nice, but you rarely have any.

I run javelinier while bleeding/poison are good. After that I use Amos and sometimes Victor. Do you need any strategy for fortress? Just move forward and kill them all.

This time I'm trying to make old school glass cannon Urtuk without delirium from forsaken. But it is too early to make conclusions. Currently he is too glass without angel's pact and aegis.

Does shooting from high ground prevent friendly fire/line-of-sight issues for crossbow users?

Also, which guy is better - the Human Hunter or the Scavenger Marksman?

Edit: What do you mean you use Javelinier "while bleeding/poison are good"? Are they not good after a certain juncture? If so, then why?

[UnluckyNoob]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Does shooting from high ground prevent friendly fire/line-of-sight issues for crossbow users?

Also, which guy is better - the Human Hunter or the Scavenger Marksman?

Edit: What do you mean you use Javelinier "while bleeding/poison are good"? Are they not good after a certain juncture? If so, then why?

Shooting from high ground solves line of sight issues but it also limit your attack range and expose you to enemy archers.

Victor > Valdor > Forsaken > Scavenger > Hunter. Forsaken is the best if you use glass cannon build.

You need poison only to prevent heal which means it is useless after Map 2. And bleeding doesn't work vs bloodless enemies.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by UnluckyNoob:

Originally posted by Lampros:

Does shooting from high ground prevent friendly fire/line-of-sight issues for crossbow users?

Also, which guy is better - the Human Hunter or the Scavenger Marksman?

Edit: What do you mean you use Javelinier "while bleeding/poison are good"? Are they not good after a certain juncture? If so, then why?

Shooting from high ground solves line of sight issues but it also limit your attack range and expose you to enemy archers.

Victor > Valdor > Forsaken > Scavenger > Hunter. Forsaken is the best if you use glass cannon build.

You need poison only to prevent heal which means it is useless after Map 2. And bleeding doesn't work vs bloodless enemies.

So every enemy is highly armored after map 2 then? Hmm, I guess I should get Poison and Bleeding criticals as mutator, not absorption then.