Why is the beastmaster mission so hard?

[心之刃]

Currently I'm in early zone 2, and I encounter a mission that requires me to save 3 beastmasters. This mission looks like a normal mission, but it is much harder than all missions I encountered, including the champion mission in zone 1. There are too many enemies on the map. Even though the beastmasters can tame beasts, as beasts keep coming from the west, it is still too hard. I wonder why is this mission so hard, and is there any clever way to clear this mission?

[betterlookingtwin]

I have completed quite a few of these on epic difficulty. First one was day 110ish I think and I was level 18 at the time. I did not take the burn down approach. I move east while engaging and burning down as many enemies as possible. I use the beastmasters (and my hunter Urtuk) to lay down as many traps as possible (I don't attack with the beastmasters till their traps are gone) when the beasts spawn to the west. If an elite beast gets trapped in range I will use a beastmaster to capture it, that delays all the beasts a ton as they all focus him now. I have my whole group at the top or the bottom of the map (whichever direction has the most direct path to the exit). Remember that the AI will generally avoid spikes or terrain that slows them so traps set up in narrow passages ringed by these hazards slow them down a ton. In all 5 I have done, I end up at the exit just as the east wave is spawning. I typically have to deal with 1 or 2 of them to safely get everyone onto the yellow squares. Ranged with immobilizing crits (hunters specifically are very good here) are also awesome as they allow you to not get gummed up by the enemies approaching from the east. Specific Strong vs really help out in these scenarios, I will ditch any non-Urtuk ranged dps who gets monsters, weakened, or bleeding because these guys need setup to unload their damage (Or in the case of strong vs monster, only be able to use this trait in 10% of the battles in the game, I HATE getting strong vs monster...). Poison is ok because I can get a tank to acid things but the best are Brutes, Swords, and Polearms (In that order on this map). Ranged is also not great because there are so few on any given map (and 2 factions don't even have ranged units). I want to stress how effective a ranged with strong vs and immobilizing, poison, and bleeding crits is here. They essentially remove enemies from the board every turn as long as they can target the thing they counter. They also delay any non-armoured target if you have focus crits. It is highly effective.

tldr: Use beastmasters and hunters to spam traps as you head east, killling along the way. Traps should buy you enough time to exit before being overwhelmed.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Dorok:

You mean it's per design, and the Champion thing proves it. It's still ending in OP hole, per design.

In Final Fantasy Tactics there's perhaps OP holes, no idea, but just grind a lot before to progress is going in a dead-end because of the scaling that will outperform the roster by not having yet enough good equipment that are get later.

In almost any RPG type of game, you end up with over-powered characters at the end, given enough grinding and knowledge of the game mechanics (and some luck). I don't see how that is unique to this game. It's similar to turn-based strategy games where you end up with "runaway" factions (usually the player's faction) after you gobble up enough land and research enough technology.

It's inevitable as death and taxes...

It's not a RPG, it's a tactical game. Not all tactical games allow grind. In the context of Tactical Games that allow grind, reversed difficulty of a campaign is a known problem but there are limits, 2000 damages day 100 looks out of the limits and from far. One character doing the job of a party of 6 is out of the limits and from far. It's in design but it's no way a common design.

When there's grinding in tactical games there's also scaling or a time rush. I think Urtuk gave up on the time rush, there's a scaling, but it is relative when it leads to Champions and 2000 damages in day 100.

The design of FFT could not be reproduced in Urtuk, in FFT there's a lot of story combats plus random combats that allow grinding, which allows design a long progression of items unlock, this can't be done in Urtuk with 4 or 5 chapters.

Most open tactical games use a time rush which is an old trick used by all the first classic Roguelikes but also Jagged Alliance 1&2, old and new xcom series, Phoenix Point, Massive Chalice, Battle Brothers, Darkest Dungeon (but a player option allows disable it), many more open Tactical Games.

RPG don't count or true Tactical RPGs that are very special and more tactical games than RPGs. RPGs don't count because no matter the goodness of their combats, open RPG allowing grinding don't bother on many buildings making combats trivial, it's part of the fun. For many RPG players, trivial combats are the reward for their build efficiency, and the fun from the reward is enough, the result of boredom combats is neglectable.

[心之刃]

Originally posted by betterlookingtwin:

I have completed quite a few of these on epic difficulty. First one was day 110ish I think and I was level 18 at the time. I did not take the burn down approach. I move east while engaging and burning down as many enemies as possible. I use the beastmasters (and my hunter Urtuk) to lay down as many traps as possible (I don't attack with the beastmasters till their traps are gone) when the beasts spawn to the west. If an elite beast gets trapped in range I will use a beastmaster to capture it, that delays all the beasts a ton as they all focus him now. I have my whole group at the top or the bottom of the map (whichever direction has the most direct path to the exit). Remember that the AI will generally avoid spikes or terrain that slows them so traps set up in narrow passages ringed by these hazards slow them down a ton. In all 5 I have done, I end up at the exit just as the east wave is spawning. I typically have to deal with 1 or 2 of them to safely get everyone onto the yellow squares. Ranged with immobilizing crits (hunters specifically are very good here) are also awesome as they allow you to not get gummed up by the enemies approaching from the east. Specific Strong vs really help out in these scenarios, I will ditch any non-Urtuk ranged dps who gets monsters, weakened, or bleeding because these guys need setup to unload their damage (Or in the case of strong vs monster, only be able to use this trait in 10% of the battles in the game, I HATE getting strong vs monster...). Poison is ok because I can get a tank to acid things but the best are Brutes, Swords, and Polearms (In that order on this map). Ranged is also not great because there are so few on any given map (and 2 factions don't even have ranged units). I want to stress how effective a ranged with strong vs and immobilizing, poison, and bleeding crits is here. They essentially remove enemies from the board every turn as long as they can target the thing they counter. They also delay any non-armoured target if you have focus crits. It is highly effective.

tldr: Use beastmasters and hunters to spam traps as you head east, killling along the way. Traps should buy you enough time to exit before being overwhelmed.

Maybe my DPS is too weak. when I try to move to the west, I'm always entangled with swamp monsters and then the beasts from the east soon catch up with me.

[Kittenpaw]

Just bleed out the beasts guys........ and place traps

[ianming]

I always clear these missions with a very fast unit with delirium :^)

[心之刃]

Originally posted by ianming:

I always clear these missions with a very fast unit with delirium :^)

Yeah, in fact I did it so. The problem is that you can't save any beastmaster then.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Dorok:

It's not a RPG, it's a tactical game.

No, Urtuk is not a pure "tactical" game. Instead, Urtuk - like most games of its genre today - blends both tactics and role-play. Battle Brothers, arguably the lead game of its genre and which inspired Urtuk, is likewise such a hybrid. Otherwise you wouldn't have such a dizzying "build" variety - among other departures characteristic of this hybrid genre.

Originally posted by Dorok:

On the context of Tactical Games that allow grind, reversed difficulty of a campaign is a known problem but there are limits, 2000 damages day 100 looks out of the limits and from far. One character doing the job of a party of 6 is out of the limits and from far. It's in design but it's no way a common design.

Contrary to your claim, games with role-playing elements commonly assign a strict division of labor - where "one character" does indeed do most of the damage. So your Urtuk and Amos do damage; Guardian and Spearman tank; Priest heals. How is this any different from many RPG/tactics hybrid games?

Originally posted by Dorok:

When there's grinding in tactical games there's also scaling or a time rush. I think Urtuk gave up on the time rush, there's a scaling, but it is relative when it leads to Champions and 2000 damages in day 100.

Just false. You take on late-game Bounty Hunters in Desolation and then tell me if the scaling doesn't encourage you to "rush." Many veterans - including several leading Youtubers - have said that theyskip much of zones 3 and 4 and rush to the final boss precisely to avoid the scaling being too punishing late-game.

Originally posted by 心之刃:

Maybe my DPS is too weak. when I try to move to the west, I'm always entangled with swamp monsters and then the beasts from the east soon catch up with me.

It obviously is. For instance, you can have this guy by day 100. (On this particular playthrough, I picked him up on day 127, but only because that was my first playthrough, and I did not understand how to farm him.) He's got 500 damage on the character sheet. You can imagine what he can do with various damage modifiers and multiple attack tools the game gives you:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2439220247

[ianming]

Originally posted by 心之刃:

Originally posted by ianming:

I always clear these missions with a very fast unit with delirium :^)

Yeah, in fact I did it so. The problem is that you can't save any beastmaster then.

You can still get beastmasters if at least 1 survives and you can escape if the beastmasters are not "activated" (i.e. still count as neutral objects)

[心之刃]

Originally posted by ianming:

You can still get beastmasters if at least 1 survives and you can escape if the beastmasters are not "activated" (i.e. still count as neutral objects)

The last beastmaster is surrounded by a lot of enemies. When I activate him, he will probably be engaged, and be killed soon... The first and middle beastmasters are not that fast, so it is also hard to escape.

[ianming]

Again you don't need to activate them to get them as a recruit, just escape with your unit and let the 1st beastmaster die.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by 心之刃:

The last beastmaster is surrounded by a lot of enemies. When I activate him, he will probably be engaged, and be killed soon... The first and middle beastmasters are not that fast, so it is also hard to escape.

You just need to save 1 Beastmaster to recruit one.

Further, you do this mission primarily for the Mutators, not the Beastmaster recruit. Who cares if you can't save any - at worst?

[Kittenpaw]

This game wasn’t inspired by Battle Brothers............ or Darkest Dungeon

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Kittenpaw:

This game wasn’t inspired by Battle Brothers............ or Darkest Dungeon

My opinion too, more Darkest Dungeon and also Battle Brothers.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Dorok:

It's not a RPG, it's a tactical game.

No, Urtuk is not a pure "tactical" game. Instead, Urtuk - like most games of its genre today - blends both tactics and role-play. Battle Brothers, arguably the lead game of its genre and which inspired Urtuk, is likewise such a hybrid.

Jagged Alliance 1 and even more Jagged Alliance 2 did it a long time before Battle Brothers, complete RPG being a Tactical Game. Urtuk is very far from both even if inspired by BT (but also Darkest Dungeon in my opinion). Unlike BT and JA2 Urtuk isn't a RPG because RPG elements are a lot more minimized. Urtuk is a tactical game with RPG elemnts as most tactical games.

This JA2/BT genre is a tiny minority genre among RPG, it's more a very rare exception like 0.1% of RPG and even less for games since the 80"s. But again, Urtuk doesn't match.

It's a minority subgenre among tactical games released the last 10 years or even since BT EA (2015), you just don't know them.

2015 releases or later, tactical games no way inspired by Battle Brothers or Jagged Alliance 2 nor even with Urtuk approach:
XCOM2
Ultimate Space Commando
Massive Chalice
Darkest Dungeon
The Storm Guard: Darkness is Coming
Super Dungeon Tactics
Templar Battleforce
Vigilantes
Pathway
Battletech
Warhammer 40,000: Mechanicus
Phantom Doctrine
Ash of Gods
Overland
Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark (sure the building is complex but inspired by FFT, no BT like, and no RPG)
Tactics V: "Obsidian Brigade"
Robothorium
Mutant Year Zero: Road to Eden
The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance Tactics
Iratus: Lord of the Dead
Fort Triumph
The Dungeon Of Naheulbeuk
Many more.

You'll have a hard time if you try to make a list of Battle Brother's inheritance or even Urtuk like.

Originally posted by Lampros:

Otherwise you wouldn't have such a dizzying "build" variety - among other departures characteristic of this hybrid genre.

Yes not many tactical games allow such a large amount of builds, but it's nothing new starting with Final Fantasy Tactic or even Ogre before, but perhaps some others I don't know or forgot and that are older.

I agree it's singular for a tactical game but it's not making it a RPG.

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Dorok:

On the context of Tactical Games that allow grind, reversed difficulty of a campaign is a known problem but there are limits, 2000 damages day 100 looks out of the limits and from far. One character doing the job of a party of 6 is out of the limits and from far. It's in design but it's no way a common design.

Contrary to your claim, games with role-playing elements commonly assign a strict division of labor - where "one character" does indeed do most of the damage. So your Urtuk and Amos do damage; Guardian and Spearman tank; Priest heals. How is this any different from many RPG/tactics hybrid games?

What? It's not about doing more damages or any role, it's about doing 2K damages and having one unit doing the job of a party of 6 (Champions).

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Dorok:

When there's grinding in tactical games there's also scaling or a time rush. I think Urtuk gave up on the time rush, there's a scaling, but it is relative when it leads to Champions and 2000 damages in day 100.

Just false. You take on late-game Bounty Hunters in Desolation and then tell me if the scaling doesn't encourage you to "rush." Many veterans - including several leading Youtubers - have said that theyskip much of zones 3 and 4 and rush to the final boss precisely to avoid the scaling being too punishing late-game.

Ok at Adventurer Bounty Hunters aren't significant so I didn't notice the point. Still grind up to have 6 Champions in the first area, this is hinting that the time pressure doesn't work at all, at least not in the first part.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Urtuk is a tactical game with RPG elemnts.

That is what I said; where then exactly is the disagreement? I described Urtuk as a "hybrid" or "blend" of tactics and role-play. It seems like you are stuck on semantics. "Tactical game with RPG [elements]" means tactics and RPG are blended or mixed.

Originally posted by Dorok:

What? It's not about doing more damages or any role, it's about doing 2K damages and having one unit doing the job of a party of 6 (Champions).

You seem fixated on the 2k damage numbers without knowing what it really means; and I think part of the difficulty at this point with you and the OP is that you are too new to the game and thus lack sufficient information - sufficient information to both tackle game's challenges and to fairly evaluate whether something is over-powered or under-powered. Please understand that I am not trying to be condescending. When people threw around these type of numbers a month ago, I had the same reaction you did.

Okay, first, 2k damage on day 100 is really NOT THAT MUCH. I know it seems obscene on Adventure mode that you currently play, but you will feel differently once you understand all the game mechanics and play Desolation. (And you are right when you complained on another thread that the game lacks documentation about some of the mechanics; but it is a small indie studio, and most peer games suffer a similar lack of documentation.) Just to get an idea: I loaded up a day 150 save of a Desolation game and entered the nearest mission (I didn't have a day 100 save). And guess what? Marshbeast Elites have 5k HP and a boat load of sustains. And there are about 30 enemies total - all concentrated in one area to the extent you cannot separate them piecemeal. In the context of facing that, 2k damage is nothing.

Second, I continue to be baffled by your difficulty in understanding the concept of division of labor. One or two characters doing the majority of damage does not mean "one unit doing the job of a party of 6." No, Amos or my Urtuk cannot tank nor heal - nor stun (which is very useful higher difficulties). Amos and my Urtuk can only do damage. They are extremely good at that; but they cannot do anything else. Why is this difficult to understand or accept? If Amos or my Urtuk can truly "[do] the job of a party of 6," then they would solo. And they cannot solo. So your claim is false.

Originally posted by Dorok:

Ok at Adventurer Bounty Hunters aren't significant so I didn't notice the point. Still grind up to have 6 Champions in the first area, this is hinting that the time pressure doesn't work at all, at least not in the first part.

Please understand that I am a notorious min-maxer, as folks who know me from other forums - such as Battle Brothers' forum - will recognize. You do not need to grind 6 Champions in zone 1 to succeed - even at Desolation. In fact, I only know one other person who does this - though it's not exactly something that I ask veterans about. Perhaps more important, I "shop" terrain - that is, re-load to get the best terrain to grind Champions. Some people think this is "lame" - and I partly agree with them. (For instance, some maps such as Intruders and Catapults can be duo-ed, if you get a map with just two entrances.) So getting 6 Champions in zone 1 requires an abundant amount of "cheese."