Relic Balance? Lets talk about it!

[BenstarDev]

Over the last few weeks since release, I have seen quite a few negative reviews centered around Relic balancing and whether Relics are worth their buy in price in HP.

Since its usually impossible to discuss things in the context of reviews, since steam barely even allows that, I thought it might be good to start a thread about this!

Additionally we also have a Balance related channel on our Discord [discord.gg] So if you wanna discuss stuff directly together with other members of the community and in a place where its a bit easier for me to actively join the conversation, feel free to hop in there and Lets talk! I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions! Lets keep making this game even better! =D

[ScoopBoop]

Brick block:
The bricks feel weak imo. The bricks are nice because they can block shots that might of otherwise hit you, however, i feel that they are a little too big. When fighting bosses with the bricks, they often break quickly from shots i had already dodged. I think that decreasing the size of the bricks would be a simple way to solve this mildly annoying scenario
Orbital synergy:
If not already planned, orbitals should get there own synergy. The benefit of it could simply be orbitals spin 25% faster (this could allow for a combo with the wind up key for really fast orbitals) This would make it 26 synergies which would ruin the librarians menu, but a synergy would make orbitals more appealing to pick up.

[Kito Ballard]

There are a lot of Relics I tend to avoid, but not enough that ruins the game for me. There are a few that I wish I never see though. The Primary contender is Trampoline. It's... just useless and leads to more problems. I just woke up so I'm sure there's a bunch I can talk about, but atm, I feel there's a lot that could get a second pass and stroke your chin to double check.

[Funguy101]

Originally posted by Kito Ballard:

There are a lot of Relics I tend to avoid, but not enough that ruins the game for me. There are a few that I wish I never see though. The Primary contender is Trampoline. It's... just useless and leads to more problems. I just woke up so I'm sure there's a bunch I can talk about, but atm, I feel there's a lot that could get a second pass and stroke your chin to double check.

Trampoline is really useful for certain situations like jumping over bargainings spin or depression to get to the other side of him. Its certainly not the greatest relic but I think it's disingenuous to call it useless. That being said if you have a suggestion for a buff I would love to hear it.

[Funguy101]

Originally posted by Hex: Cheese Smeller:

Brick block:
The bricks feel weak imo. The bricks are nice because they can block shots that might of otherwise hit you, however, i feel that they are a little too big. When fighting bosses with the bricks, they often break quickly from shots i had already dodged. I think that decreasing the size of the bricks would be a simple way to solve this mildly annoying scenario
Orbital synergy:
If not already planned, orbitals should get there own synergy. The benefit of it could simply be orbitals spin 25% faster (this could allow for a combo with the wind up key for really fast orbitals) This would make it 26 synergies which would ruin the librarians menu, but a synergy would make orbitals more appealing to pick up.

An orbital synergy would be really cool honestly. I think that to introduce new synergies it would be most logical to add 5 at once because ben said that the main reason he didn't add a doll synergy is because the synergy menu was perfectly laid out. Would be cool to see if anyone else has new synergy ideas too!
Right now there could maybe be a doll synergy, a orbital synergy, possibly a machine synergy? Would be cool to see some other synergy ideas too!

[Kito Ballard]

Originally posted by Funguy101:

Originally posted by Kito Ballard:

There are a lot of Relics I tend to avoid, but not enough that ruins the game for me. There are a few that I wish I never see though. The Primary contender is Trampoline. It's... just useless and leads to more problems. I just woke up so I'm sure there's a bunch I can talk about, but atm, I feel there's a lot that could get a second pass and stroke your chin to double check.

Trampoline is really useful for certain situations like jumping over bargainings spin or depression to get to the other side of him. Its certainly not the greatest relic but I think it's disingenuous to call it useless. That being said if you have a suggestion for a buff I would love to hear it.

The Spin? Wall climb. If there's icicles, just gun jump. To get over Depression, I just use the gun jump. And now that he has his hit boxes fixed, it's even easier. Trampoline is just the Gun Jump, which is easy to do. And to fix it? Pff I dono. It's so useless to me I don't even take it to give the twins. If I had the ability to strike items from items pools, it'd be my number 1 pick.

[Funguy101]

Originally posted by Kito Ballard:

Originally posted by Funguy101:

Trampoline is really useful for certain situations like jumping over bargainings spin or depression to get to the other side of him. Its certainly not the greatest relic but I think it's disingenuous to call it useless. That being said if you have a suggestion for a buff I would love to hear it.

The Spin? Wall climb. If there's icicles, just gun jump. To get over Depression, I just use the gun jump. And now that he has his hit boxes fixed, it's even easier. Trampoline is just the Gun Jump, which is easy to do. And to fix it? Pff I dono. It's so useless to me I don't even take it to give the twins. If I had the ability to strike items from items pools, it'd be my number 1 pick.

Sure you can wall climb and gun jump but trampoline makes it so you don't have to. That seems like a use to me at least.

[Kito Ballard]

It's still a horrible item. I'd rather get myself in spots with my gun. Most the guns do better than it anyways. Even Frog Leg does som'in more. Yeah, it's 5% jump, but comes with more useful stats.

[Kito Ballard]

I'll split my post to write more about other relics, now I'm awake enough and got the game open.

I tend to avoid Followers (Whispy Jr, Soul Urn are examples) cause they get in the way as they are "foreground" items instead of being behind certain set pieces. They aren't bad, just a more personal annoyance.

I tend to not take Great Sword due to it's sharp speed cut (even after it's upgraded). When I need the damage I would but man is it slow.

Second Gear is usually a "scrap" item to me as I generally have the combo gauge at 2x, or in a position where I don't care about the gauge (which is most the time). Not sure what could be done here for the item but honestly just som'in I'm not a fan to see.

Bio cell is a strong item, but the nature of the extra shot is so wild, I avoid it anymore. If the shots didn't flail around so willy nilly, I'd consider running it more.

I don't take Poker Chip mainly due to it's damage down. It isn't much but enough to not be interesting. It's upgrade is only a 5% buff to chance, which is "meh".

Tissue and Shade cloak I just avoid as I'd rather stay far away from enemies than touch em. Plus Tissue falls under my next part.

I tend to not take DOT items as they generally do so little damage that I kill the creatures before it gets a decent chunk done. Poison and fire are great, but just don't carry enough weight in damage. Only DOT one I grab are items that spawns BEES. Cause BEES.

Out of all the Legendary items, I avoid Miracle. 1% change to do "massive" damage is.... boring. And it caps at 2%, that's 4 hearts. Too much for som'in that's a bit too rare.

Peaceful Decoy is another I rarely snag. I can see the use for it but outside that, I'm usually already in the room, blasting away.

Heart Fairy could use a buff of some sort. A lot of the times you focus after the fighting has occurred, which wastes the orbital. Maybe let it be Area wide instead but can cap only 2~3 fairies? Do they even die when they block a bullet? I don't know much about this item as I always get the orbital blocks after battles.

Winged Strawberry needs more incentive to not dash than a straight 5% buff.

Dynamo and Rain boots are 2 items that was interesting on paper, poor in execution. I only take em when I wanna get myself killed for laughs with explosives.

Marbles is such a boring item. (huh, skeleton key's missing it's sprite in my book XD)

I personally would love to see Mimic charm get a 5% boost to all levels. Give it a better chance to spawn one (specially for that rare Red Mimic)

As amusing as Boxing Glove is with it's knockback, it's honestly just a bit high. I'd still take it though.

Morals is an interesting item, but it's synergy for 10% Blessed chance is redundant since everything's already blessed.

Quasar is another I don't get due to rarely, if ever, using my celestials in a non-boss room. Tend to have them already charged, and most weapons do a good enough job charging them.

I love Eye Dropper but it needs a nerf to prevent it giving you heart piece charges XD

The Doll collection could use a synergy. Not sure what kind, but all of them are nutty and pretty much can't avoid taking them.
---------
These are just ones from my unlocks that I've experienced so far. Also amusingly the Broken Watch and Mirror Prism don't show sprites as well.

[ScoopBoop]

[/quote]An orbital synergy would be really cool honestly. I think that to introduce new synergies it would be most logical to add 5 at once because ben said that the main reason he didn't add a doll synergy is because the synergy menu was perfectly laid out. Would be cool to see if anyone else has new synergy ideas too!
Right now there could maybe be a doll synergy, a orbital synergy, possibly a machine synergy? Would be cool to see some other synergy ideas too! [/quote]

Doll, orbital, smithy (things to do with hammers and the blacksmith), split the food synergy into 2 groups for food and drinks (giving different benefits) and for the last one i was thinking a synergy called Heat/Hot This would include everything warm (tiki torch, hot chocolate, coffee, scented candle, flamethrower, matchbox) this one is just an idea, but they could do the same with ice/cold relics.
Benefits of the synergies- Doll increases all stats by 5%. Orbital makes orbitals spin 25% faster/Brings orbitals closer to the player (to protect the player better). Smithy gives 1 relic hammer/ makes upgrading cost 0.5 max hearts less (except for common lvl 1). Drinks make chef appear more regularly/ have 2 items/ have a pickup. Heat/Hot could make Burn damage quicker/ deal more damage. (increasing % chance of burn doesn't work well with flamethrower)

[ScoopBoop]

this isnt relic balance, but bargaining feels easier after he gets enraged, his most difficult attack is his wavy bullets, but they don't appear fast enough in the second phase where he does his easiest attack to avoid (homing arm attack)
I hate his boss fight because of his wavy bullets while being on ice, but whenever i get to the second phase im always relieved because its far easier.

[Kito Ballard]

Forgot about Heart Mould: Needs to be upgradable. a ½ shield every time one is made is kinda lame.

[Pemy]

I don't have much issue with the overall relic balance, but I do think the power disparity between common and rare relics can be a bit much sometimes. I can see it being an issue for new players who aren't used to risking a ton of health, and likely end up mostly with commons. Plenty of them could do with a small power boost, but I'd suggest a handful that could particularly use a buff.

Bursting Soul, even for an on-hit common effect, is extremely underwhelming. At the very least, I’d increase the amount of bullets it produces, or give it some additional effect.

Extractor seems like a strictly worse Stopwatch, and I’m still not entirely sure how it works. A similar effect could be recharging your dash instantly upon killing an enemy, while being more clear and easier to play around.

Winged Strawberry gets brought up a lot, and I agree it could use a rebalance. An all stat boost spreads its power a little too thin for the playstyle it attempts to enable, so I think it would work better as a pure damage up instead. Maybe start at 20%, up to 30 or 40 with upgrades.

Tissue’s effect is very hard to notice and not really worth enabling, especially for such a short duration. Could be neat if it gave familiars contact poison too, even if the duration might have to be reduced because of it.

Ghost Tear is niche in a game with very few walls getting in the way, but I guess it does its job. Giving it a minor stat like a 10% shot speed up couldn’t hurt, like Slime Ball’s buff.

I never make use of Glass Hammer, since I’m already prepared to spend some health if I’m entering a chest room. If destroying relics gave the same chance to drop a pickup or something, I might be interested in taking this more often.

Wind Up Key doesn’t really feel like an upgrade nor a downgrade. I assume it grants an orbital if you don’t have one, but other than that, I don’t really see its purpose. Not sure how I’d buff this one, unless it had an orbital of its own attached to it, but that might be too similar to Big Rock.

And while there's nothing wrong with Laserpointer, I think it would be neat if it indicated the length of your bullet range too. Maybe it’s just me, but I have a hard time judging my range sometimes, and having a visual indicator would be a nice ability.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by Hex: Cheese Smeller:

Brick block:
The bricks feel weak imo. The bricks are nice because they can block shots that might of otherwise hit you, however, i feel that they are a little too big. When fighting bosses with the bricks, they often break quickly from shots i had already dodged. I think that decreasing the size of the bricks would be a simple way to solve this mildly annoying scenario
Orbital synergy:
If not already planned, orbitals should get there own synergy. The benefit of it could simply be orbitals spin 25% faster (this could allow for a combo with the wind up key for really fast orbitals) This would make it 26 synergies which would ruin the librarians menu, but a synergy would make orbitals more appealing to pick up.

there is in fact, a multiuplier for orbital rotational speed and power - it only pertains to obritals that deal melee damage, however.
I imaginw the joker card that adds + synergy to everything would asisst and gettingthis

[Kito Ballard]

I LOVE Back Shield with item that makes familiars larger. But after picking the Rare version up, it's now on my "avoid" list. It's still good, but now you can't shoot past it. It follow your mouse instead of which way Revita Kid's back is.

I forgot to bring up Provision Bag: This item is a huge avoid if I'm early in the run, as draining my damage the longer the run goes is a "No go" for me. Now, if it gave 5% per Area while it's base damage was 5~10% to start, I'd grab it more often.

[Kivi]

Sun and moon medal could be celestial.

Agree with Kito on DOT effects being too weak. I used burning aura to beat denial without shooting and it took like 10-15x usual time. They also don't scale with your damage as far as I noticed which makes them even more useless on later stages.

Also agree that miracle needs a huge buff. With only 2% chance the "massive" damage must be something in the same order of magnitude as boss health. I also like the idea of having it one-shot any regular or elite enemy and take a fraction of total health from bosses, like 1/3.