Resilience - A good mechanic or a punishment?

[Snork]

Since some things in Wayfinder are hard to understand because they lack description, one thing that gets me the most is resilience.

After looking around for some info, the only conclusion for it is that it just gives you more guard bar. I don't know if more of it also gives you less regeneration time for the bar to come back, for example.

With that in mind, I do not think this guard bar is a good idea for players.

- It adds another layer of punishment (we also have stamina and it runs out).
- Do we take more damage when the guard is broken? Because it seems like we do.
- We also have staggers when it is down.
- Sometimes it takes forever to heal, sometimes it heals faster. I don't understand why.

I know they were trying to emulate Souls-like combat, and the resilience here is so we don't hit the mob until it dies, ignore everything, and heal through it. We don't have a stamina penalty for attacking.

I think they should look at some other type of system, maybe something related to stamina, like in the games they take combat ideas from. Right now I feel like the only time it's worth it is if your base weapon has it as a base stat (obviously) to use against normal mobs. For bosses it is pretty much worthless because they have more break damage.

[Elveone]

When you are broken enemy hits stagger you and you do not have physical and magical defense. Same thing when you break enemies. It is a fun mechanic when you understand and exploit it as it can increase your damage quite a lot.

[Snork]

Originally posted by Elveone:

When you are broken enemy hits stagger you and you do not have physical and magical defense. Same thing when you break enemies. It is a fun mechanic when you understand and exploit it as it can increase your damage quite a lot.

Wow ... no defenses at all ? This is not a mechanic that works well with the idea of having more mitigation. Even investing on resilience and having a weapon with base resilience, sometimes it is just crap. The bar can't hold enough attacks. Yes, the perfect idea behind the combat is to not get hit, but atm there is not a real trade off in this stat.

Considering what you just said, i would just prefer no resilience at all, for players and mobs. Distribute the extra damage of "guard breaking" a mob to the player trough the gear and try to have stamina the same way in a souls-game, a mechanic to be managed during combat and that can limit you a lot if you do not pay attention.

[Elveone]

And I don't think being able to facetank everything is a good gameplay. The system gives you tankiness without making you immortal. The idea is that you should be aware of the situation you are in - if you have resilience then go ham, if you don't then fall back and play more defensively.

[Fortirus]

Originally posted by Elveone:

And I don't think being able to facetank everything is a good gameplay. The system gives you tankiness without making you immortal. The idea is that you should be aware of the situation you are in - if you have resilience then go ham, if you don't then fall back and play more defensively.

Can't say better myself. For me its just such fresh mechanic and fun to get intro after all this years with most games using same old "only HP" or "HP and armor/shield" approaches.

[Phits]

Originally posted by Fortirus:

Originally posted by Elveone:

And I don't think being able to facetank everything is a good gameplay. The system gives you tankiness without making you immortal. The idea is that you should be aware of the situation you are in - if you have resilience then go ham, if you don't then fall back and play more defensively.

Can't say better myself. For me its just such fresh mechanic and fun to get intro after all this years with most games using same old "only HP" or "HP and armor/shield" approaches.

No one puts a system like this in a game like this cause it really is a bad system for it. It negates the purpose of Melee and Tanks/Healers. It forces the player to play a High DMG fast build to run and gun avoiding hits. There is no reason to play anything other than glass cannon limiting game play even further into doing the same thing with the same character over and over ad nauseam.

[Fortirus]

Originally posted by Phits:

No one puts a system like this in a game like this cause it really is a bad system for it. It negates the purpose of Melee and Tanks/Healers. It forces the player to play a High DMG fast build to run and gun avoiding hits. There is no reason to play anything other than glass cannon limiting game play even further into doing the same thing with the same character over and over ad nauseam.

But what about Sekiro and Armored Core 6? They have this system, also somewhat action rpg and it works great
As for this game - I'm playing as Silo and usually with double blade (Slice one). Even with the invincibility from most attack by parry and alt attack, I still get busted in hard bosses or mobs encounters. Bosses - usually break my resilience with 1 or 2 attack (I don’t have mush points in it), after which I retreat, bomb them from afar (with is way less damage that just attacking) and wait my RS to fill. Because otherwise I probably get one-shotted.
The resilience give me the needed tankinees to stay alive even if I miss an attack or two, but without it - I'm not skilled enough to "run and gun" hard enemies.
With tank character, weapon and build - I will just take it and continuing to do my full dps for more time or even the full fight. The
And don’t make me start on how good it feels and rewarding to break the enemy (especially bosses)!

[Elveone]

Originally posted by Phits:

Originally posted by Fortirus:

Can't say better myself. For me its just such fresh mechanic and fun to get intro after all this years with most games using same old "only HP" or "HP and armor/shield" approaches.

No one puts a system like this in a game like this cause it really is a bad system for it. It negates the purpose of Melee and Tanks/Healers. It forces the player to play a High DMG fast build to run and gun avoiding hits. There is no reason to play anything other than glass cannon limiting game play even further into doing the same thing with the same character over and over ad nauseam.

The system doesn't limit you unless you ignore it completely. You can still be tanky, you just cannot facetank everything.

[Nemeis]

Originally posted by Phits:

Originally posted by Fortirus:

Can't say better myself. For me its just such fresh mechanic and fun to get intro after all this years with most games using same old "only HP" or "HP and armor/shield" approaches.

No one puts a system like this in a game like this cause it really is a bad system for it. It negates the purpose of Melee and Tanks/Healers. It forces the player to play a High DMG fast build to run and gun avoiding hits. There is no reason to play anything other than glass cannon limiting game play even further into doing the same thing with the same character over and over ad nauseam.

It's not a bad system if you are playing the tank guy and the sword and shield. I know I can take a beating as long as I watch my health. I regen health while fighting. I don't want them to have a system where I just stand there and a healer just spam heals. That is a broken boring system.

[Snork]

It is funny to see people mentioning face tanking, tactics, "thinking about your moves" and the meta is ranged weapons, on ranged oriented characters with full offensive, melting everything. Where is the build diversity on that ?

[Elveone]

Originally posted by Snork:

It is funny to see people mentioning face tanking, tactics, "thinking about your moves" and the meta is ranged weapons, on ranged oriented characters with full offensive, melting everything. Where is the build diversity on that ?

Yeah, that is a problem but it has nothing to do with the resilience system. Range currently eliminates danger almost completely so it is natural that the most successful glass cannon builds would be ranged WP builds.

I'm playing either a well rounded build with some tankiness and self-healing or a melee or skill-focused glass cannons and the game is a bit more fun that way IMO. If I wanted to just mow everything down then ranged is the way to go but it is just not fun.

[Snork]

Originally posted by Elveone:

Originally posted by Snork:

It is funny to see people mentioning face tanking, tactics, "thinking about your moves" and the meta is ranged weapons, on ranged oriented characters with full offensive, melting everything. Where is the build diversity on that ?

Yeah, that is a problem but it has nothing to do with the resilience system. Range currently eliminates danger almost completely so it is natural that the most successful glass cannon builds would be ranged WP builds.

I'm playing either a well rounded build with some tankiness and self-healing or a melee or skill-focused glass cannons and the game is a bit more fun that way IMO. If I wanted to just mow everything down then ranged is the way to go but it is just not fun.

Yes, it does. Playing with something that you can focus on less stats and alocate more points to what you use, usually offensive, is the best way to go. If you can play with a class that "eliminates danger almost completely ", some stats will come out because they give you return. If you have something like resilience, in which you invest and the return is minimal, you just cut a mechanic from the game because the stat is not usefull. What the stat gives you will dictate if they are vital or not.

Maybe to you, having a effective and strong class is not fun, but for most of the player base killing is their goal. Do you really think that people log on the game to scratch mobs, with the limited time they have ?

[Elveone]

Originally posted by Snork:

Originally posted by Elveone:

Yeah, that is a problem but it has nothing to do with the resilience system. Range currently eliminates danger almost completely so it is natural that the most successful glass cannon builds would be ranged WP builds.

I'm playing either a well rounded build with some tankiness and self-healing or a melee or skill-focused glass cannons and the game is a bit more fun that way IMO. If I wanted to just mow everything down then ranged is the way to go but it is just not fun.

Yes, it does. Playing with something that you can focus on less stats and alocate more points to what you use, usually offensive, is the best way to go. If you can play with a class that "eliminates danger almost completely ", some stats will come out because they give you return. If you have something like resilience, in which you invest and the return is minimal, you just cut a mechanic from the game because the stat is not usefull. What the stat gives you will dictate if they are vital or not.

Maybe to you, having a effective and strong class is not fun, but for most of the player base killing is their goal. Do you really think that people log on the game to scratch mobs, with the limited time they have ?

If you play glass cannon then no defensive stats are useful. Should we remove them all then? Removing resilience would not fix the problem with the dull ranged builds being the most effective. Making the game dangerous for ranged characters will.

[Chimeric]

Ive been testing a bunch of stuff and this what i found:

Looks like if ur resilience insta breaks ur defense stat is pretty much useless. If u wanna be tanky best way is to max HP, then resilience as secondary stat so u can actually use whatever defense u do have, and then add defense if no meaninful hp increase left.

As far as weapons if u are ranged ur ok to go full damage as you can usually dps outside of a mobs hit range. If you meele using daggers and can parry also ok to go full damage(especially on niss since even out of stamina she has immunity frame skills that relocate her). If you have to block u need HP and resilience imo.

[Chimeric]

Also yeah i kinda agree with elveone, playing a ranged weapon kinda boring since its so safe. Maybe make ranged weapons deal less damage? so it is more of a trade off- safety for dmg.

[Yami]

tbh my main issue with resilience is that even with having alot of it bosses tend to just shred through it like its nothing which kinda makes it meh to build for.
as for ranged weapons them having a 50% defense bypass at least last i checked is kinda causing them to be a bit too efficient