So it's both Buy to Play and Pay to Win.

[Fairgamer]

That's a big 'avoid' from me.

[Yig]

Originally posted by Taiji:

Originally posted by Yig:

Yup exactly why I looked at every definition on the front page of google and they all confirmed this definition so it seems it's the most common definition. Whats your point ?

Argument from consensus or argument from authority - Neither of them work when it comes to what words mean to people who use them.

So you only learned what google was putting out when you searched, and you did not learn what P2W means more broadly than that.

I'll be surprised if you understood what I just told you.

Probably a liberal Not worth debating using logic.

[Taiji]

Originally posted by Yig:

Originally posted by Taiji:

Argument from consensus or argument from authority - Neither of them work when it comes to what words mean to people who use them.

So you only learned what google was putting out when you searched, and you did not learn what P2W means more broadly than that.

I'll be surprised if you understood what I just told you.

Probably a liberal :soyface: Not worth debating using logic.

At least you made me laugh.

[Brolando]

Originally posted by Yig:

Someone probably said it already but.
Paying to get an advantage over a non-paying user = P2W.
Feel free to use the world wide web to google words you arent sure of.

What I define as P2W is:

Gameplay altering advantages that are given to players who pay real world money, but are not possible or feasible for free to play players to obtain. (feasible basically meaning that it can be obtained, but for example it takes an unreasonable amount of time. Like with OW2 heroes that are locked behind a battle pass)

The weapons you can buy from the store are the some ones you can grind for in-game and while these are better than the gear you start with, this is not a Diablo Immortal type of situation where if you buy them with real money you get the highest possible tier of gear in the game and start dominating content, while free players can't even begin to keep up or compete. The craftable weapons here are not strictly better than one another, a lot of it comes down to preference.

The only thing in this game that remotely falls within the category of P2W is Heroic Kyros because he's an objectively better version of Kyros with a 10% stat increase, assuming they don't make him available to craft for free players eventually, which would basically be like Warframe's prime monetisation model.

But other than that I don't classify this game as P2W, I have actually played P2W games as a lot of Asian MMOs back when I was a kid and even now are very blatantly P2W, a 10% increase in stats for heroic Kyros is nothing when you see how much in-game power can be bought with real money in those games.

But I also struggle to call this P2W because there's no PvP. With the only thing that can remotely be held up as P2W being Heroic Kyros, that guy is not winning from me when queuing up for a dungeon with me and even if PvP was available in this game that measly 10% stat increase is not going to make up for any skill diff.

Also, I saw you call some other guy a "liberal", I'm just letting you know that I'd be considered a radical right winger and hopefully that shows because I think my argument is more thought out.

[Furyion]

if you don't have the ca$h blame your self , why you types should not cry and weep and stomp.. work for it .. Earn what you want in life. lazy breeds weaken gene pools lol.

[Brolando]

Originally posted by Rvvens:

Lets say that games, up until the 2000-2010s, used to be democratic. It is required to make a note about this: accessing to gaming was not democratic at all; gaming was expensive. However once you were in the game, playing it, no matter online or offline (we used to be able to chose whether we wanted to play a solo session or jumping into online) we were all the same in the sense that playing the game was the only way to get the game rewards (which used to be the mere satisfaction of achieving whatever thus boosting and friend-carrying were kind of odd; the fun was in learning to play a game you liked. No FOMO nor nothing).

Nah, back then you could play games on basically a craptop, I know because I did loads of that.

But it seems like you're talking about games that have a singleplayer/possibly co-op campaign and then some multiplayer options.
Which isn't a fair comparison to this, as this is a game that's designed from the ground up to be an online game and even back in the 2000 - 2010s MMORPGs were already thriving. This game is not an MMORPG, but it's still a game that's designed around online play just like MMORPGs were back then.

Heroic Kyros and cosmetics are the only things you can't get without paying in this game and that's not at all surprising, because this game is gonna go free to play and this right here is a paid beta.

Heroic Kyros is also the only thing you could remotely call a P2W mechanic because he's objectively better than regular Kyros, even though that 10% increase in stats is not gonna compensate for any skill diff if there actually was PvP in this game.

Originally posted by Rvvens:

So now, with this MTX trend and this semantic deflections about "what winning really means", the relevant point behind all of this is that the social (IRL) inequality is permeating to gaming. Gaming is not only hard to access (we take for granted the online service, the decent computer, the ability to purchase games regularly, etc.) but now is also upsetting. From a place where anybody was equal and the differences were made based mostly on skill level (there was not really a market for grindy games because games as a life service were not popular yet; so it was not just about pouring hours into a game but about being good or bad. And there was no drama about it; just some banter) we've arrived to a place where IRL dynamics apply 1:1 to gaming.

Whoa, you must have not played a lot of Eastern MMORPGs then, because the microtransactions in those games already were far more egregious than anything you'll find in this game back then and even to this day.
It's actually the type of monetisation that Western AAA games are now implementing in their games. This game? Not nearly as offensive.

But I'll tell you what "winning" means, especially when it comes to P2W models. You're buying a gameplay altering advantage that free players either straight up can't obtain or can't obtain within a reasonable amount of time and therefore the P2W player will always outcompete the free player whether that's in PvE content and PvP content.

Imagine if Call of Duty decided to start selling cosmetics that had stats on them like +15% movement speed, 20% flashbang protection, 10% damage reduction etc. and there's no way for free players to obtain any of these and it would result in a state where the team with the most and the biggest whales will very likely win. That is P2W.

But let's say it's a PvE game and you want to somehow define that as P2W, the same thing applies here. Along with stat boosted gear/cosmetics, any item, whether cosmetic or consumable that will make farming more efficient, and often significantly more efficient could be considered P2W. Think of increased backpack space, pets that will run around and pick up your drops for you, xp boosts, item drop boosts, cash shop exclusive mounts (often faster than mounts you can get in-game) etc.

None of that is in this game.

Also, "games as a life service" already existed back then, what the hell are you talking about? That's effectively what an MMORPG is and MMORPGs were already around back then.

And your rambling about equality, keep your leftist, Socialist nonsense to yourself. Your brain rot is completely irrelevant to this topic.

Originally posted by Rvvens:

Why do you care that a whale is getting the high end gear through their wallet? Well, I dont really care about that gear specifically; I care about bringing "the rule of money" to everything and everywhere. That's what pisses me off; the only thing pissing me off harder are the people with your attitude.

That's the way I see it.

Yeah, you left wingers really don't like anyone who has a little bit more than you do. But just because you're resentful and envious of others, it doesn't mean that this game is P2W.

[Cainael]

Nah, Just farm materials for the weapon or character you want to play, if you don't wanna pay you don't have to pay, just play.

[Destructo Dave]

Originally posted by Tha_T1p:

Doesnt really feel p2w at all, feels just like Warframe, with WAY less choice. You can grind the weapons and characters, or buy them, but you still have to level them up manually like everyone else, so you're not instantly paying for power at all. So many people confuse this with paying to win because they can't afford the convenience purchases, but its just not the case.

Warframe is P2W, but its a P2W system people can tolerate. Any paid advantages over another player is p2w. It doesnt matter if its just PvE or not. Warframe's model is acceptable becuase F2p players can earn anything in the game by trading for platinum.

Just because its a good system doesnt magically not make it a p2w system. Its still a P2W system. Stash tabs in PoE, another p2w system.

Any paid advantages over another player, no matter how small, is p2w, period. It simply boils down to how acceptable it is to you as a player or to the playerbase in general. Some are worse and less acceptable than others, but it doesnt change the fact its still p2w, even if people like it.

Btw I love Warframe and PoE, 2 of my favorite games. But that doesnt mean I'm gonna lie and pretend its not P2W to have a cash shop with paid advantages over other players.

[Yig]

Originally posted by Brolando:

Thank you. TL:DR The topic isn't about your own definition of the word. Although you have the right to have your own reality where this game isn't P2W.

[Brolando]

Originally posted by Yig:

Originally posted by Brolando:

Thank you. TL:DR The topic isn't about your own definition of the word. Although you have the right to have your own reality where this game isn't P2W.

My definition of P2W is very specific as it should be and it very much falls in line with any common definition. For something to be P2W what you buy has to be a gameplay altering advantage that you have over others and my definition extends to games where the devs say "but look, you can earn everything in game!" even though earning it takes an unreasonable amount of time and therefore isn't feasible for free players.

A vague and loose definition would mean you can make arguments like "WoW is P2W because expansions raise level cap, therefore you have an advantage in PvP against players who don't own the expansion". That's why I use a specific definition.

Also just dismissing me without even offering a counter argument? You know that you haven't proven me wrong here, don't you? You sure you're no leftard? Because I'm pretty sure I'm spotting a leftard, as you're behaving like one. So much for reasoning and logic.

[Endermage444]

Its definitely more pay to progress faster rather than pay to win. Anyone can farm anything other than kyros's alt form.

[Brolando]

Originally posted by Endermage444:

Its definitely more pay to progress faster rather than pay to win. Anyone can farm anything other than kyros's alt form.

Yeah, that and the timed cash shop cosmetics are the only things that rub me the wrong way about this monetisation. Hopefully he can be farmed later on too, kinda like Warframe does its releases for prime versions of existing warframes.

[Gravitymint]

Originally posted by RoadDog:

u get heroic Kyros from only REAL MONEY so yeah , its P2W. dont matters if its a PvE game. maybe go to school more. or learn the real meaning what p2w is.

p2w = u get something for REAL MONEY what gives u PLUS STATS, that u cant buy ingame for INGAME MONEY !!! WAS AND ALLWAYS WILL BE THIS WAY !!!

Wrong, IT CAN be earned in-game, guess you failed the entire reading portion of school huh? (All wayfinders will have heroics earnedable later on, Kyros just first for a long-while)

[Brolando]

Originally posted by Gravitymint:

Wrong, IT CAN be earned in-game, guess you failed the entire reading portion of school huh? (All wayfinders will have heroics earnedable later on, Kyros just first for a long-while)

Oh that solves that part of the issue I had with it. Most of these people crying about P2W though, they've really never seen a game that's truly P2W.

Grasping at straws is what you call this. They'd probably start foaming at the mouth and faint after being exposed to pretty much any Korean MMO.

[Yig]

There's games that are more P2W. Pay to progress is the same thing as Pay to Win. If others have to farm for something that affects gameplay and you can buy it, that's P2W.

[Brolando]

Originally posted by Yig:

There's game that are more P2W. Pay to progress is the same thing as Pay to Win. If others have to farm for something that affects gameplay and you can buy it, that's P2W.

P2W is literally always use in relation to the cash shop and that fact you can buy power from it. That is what a gameplay altering advantage is, if you're always going to be objectively more powerful than a free player, even after that free player has basically maxed out on his gear, that's P2W.

Pay to progress can also be P2W, but only when it's done in a way where free players could theoretically achieve the same level of power as a paying player, but it'll take them an ungodly amount of time to do it.

Example: OW2 released with a battlepass and a new support hero, which was basically so good that she was META and if you didn't have her available you were at a significant disadvantage. This new support hero was locked behind a battlepass, paying players got her instantly and free players had to go through an unreasonable grind to get it.

This is P2W, because the advantage you get is game altering and significant. Diablo Immoral is another very strong and more extreme example of this, and so is basically any Korean MMO that has a gear upgrade system with a chance of breaking your gear and cash shop items to prevent that from happening.

This game? Not even close.