COMPLAINT

[rodolfoxmen]

In my opinion, melee is made very weak and it is very difficult to tank with melee. Although there should be a serious defense difference between mages and melee, there is a very small difference. In short, I would appreciate it if you could buff melee a little. Thank you in advance.

[Faerador]

Elphame_Gold eredeti hozzászólása:

Faerador, Just curious, with this same line of thought, whats your opninion about the latest armor additions to the game? in regards to balancing, how do they feel to you? I been really enjoying the nightsteel armor with the melee helmet. I may even ditch the sturdy enchants and go for keen.

I think both the Nightsteel sets and the Slime melee sets are great. They kind of exacerbate the problem with melee, really. I didn't really notice the issue as much until I got first the Slime set and then the Nightsteel. Slime set comes in at 28/30/18 base, which is 16 defense higher than the base Glacial set (20/24/16), and Nightsteel is even higher at 32/36/22, a staggering 30 defense higher than the Glacial. It's so good I fear it may end up getting nerfed.

It really shows a lack of another set of armor somewhere in between Glacial and Ancient Fossil that's true melee armor in addition to the Glass Cannon (Brittle Steel??) melee set that is Ancient Fossil. Hence my suggestion to add a Mycelium melee helm and possibly even buff Mycelium chest and pants. A melee set that has a defense roughly +4 higher than the Glacial melee set, but with the movement speed bonus that IMO isn't as cool as the Glacial set bonus to balance things, would be pretty ideal. Having no true, new melee set from Deep Snow Caves until Incursions feels lacking to me. That's four bosses with the same armor as a melee character, or three if you use Ancient Fossil.

But back to your question, Nightsteel truly feels like melee. I definitely get that power game rush playing with the NIghtsteel set and the Slime Glaive, just ripping stuff up. It's too bad that, when you finally unlock the Nightsteel set, you've pretty much played all the content, so you can only re-play stuff with it. That is, unless/until more higher-tier content comes along. I'm hopeful that, with this base Incursion system set up now, it'll be quicker and easier for the team to possibly implement other modes than just Hunt and Extraction. For example, I'd absolutely LOVE to see a Boss Rush Incursion type mode.

I'm glad you're also enjoying the armor. You did say you main melee, right? Feels pretty good to you? Has that endgame feel to it?

[Monk]

Funny thing is: I neither felt offended by anything that was said throughout this topic nor did I mean to argue, at all. To be honest, I'm both too old and too indifferent to convincing others of my opinions to even try "winning" random discussions (or mere conversations) with strangers, whether they happen here or elsewhere...
I rather just tried to be factual, that the game itself doesn't reference classes in any way, only damage types and/or weapon characteristics

Taking examples from games that actually have classes, classes using melee combat aren't necessarily able to withstand much damage. Some are even quite weak in this regard, but make up for this with higher damage output. Possible examples might be Barbarians and Crusaders from some action RPGs, the former usually concentrating on high damage output, the latter usually concentrating on high armor, but both using melee combat

Therefore, individual interpretations or understandings of "melee classes" might not necessarily match what Necesse and similar games, such as Terraria, refer to when stating that a weapon causes melee damage or that equipment has bonuses to melee damage. Which brings me to this statement:

Faerador eredeti hozzászólása:

So in essence, your last melee upgrade is at the second deep cave, unless you like playing melee like a glass cannon in the Ancient Fossil.

Which doesn't sound very much like melee, and brings me to my second point: I don't feel like "melee" plays like "melee" should

There might just be no shared understanding of what "melee class" means, just individual interpretations or understandings, although some might admittedly be more common than others. The developer might have tried to provide alternative approaches, e.g. with the Ancient Fossil clothing, having rather medium armor values, but allowing for rather high temporary damage output instead. Does it really matter that the armor boosts all damage instead of just melee damage?

A personal experience regarding tanking damage up close with mid-game Tungsten clothing:
As far as I remember correctly, I've used Tungsten clothing with Sturdy enchantments whenever I felt the need for high armor values, even when facing Sage and Grit, especially as its bonus disables all knockback. With this, I was able to almost stand in oneplace while swinging the Cryo Glaive that dropped from the Cryo Queen, which was the same approach I used for the Pest Warden earlier on
The mentioned equipment quite possibly was the following, depending on what I could still find in storage:

• Sturdy Tungsten Helmet
  
• Sturdy Tungsten Chestplate
  
• Sturdy Tungsten Boots
  
• Berserk Cryo Glaive
  
• Savage Cryo Staff
  
• Sturdy Aged Champion Shield
  
• Keen Balanced Frostfire Foci
  
• Keen Hysteria Tablet
  
• Keen Scrying Mirror
  
• Keen Frozen Soul
  
• Keen Life Pendant
  
• ...and whatever potions I had available

In this regard, I personally would even say that Glacial clothing is more of a side-grade, as it lacks Tungsten clothing's set bonus while providing only slightly higher armor values. Obviously depending on above mentioned playstyle...

That's why I would like to repeat a question I asked in my previous post, with a little modification: Why should a specific playstyle be viable in all situations and against all bosses, when the game allows to flexibly adapt playstyles to situations/bosses?
As I mentioned before, I very much prefer to summon creatures to do the fighting for me, but as bosses fight in different ways, how can I expect to triumph if I fight the same way all the time?!
And also, follow-up questions: If there were just "four playstyles" as mentioned at least once throughout this topic, which of those would the following equipment set fit into? Might it be, that there are just four damage types for ease of game mechanics, but actually dozens of playstyles, some of them even based on equipment available quite early in the game?

Monk eredeti hozzászólása:

More than once I've equipped clothes synergizing with summons, a shield for additional armor, trinkets synergizing with either the summons or with ranged weapons, and then shot at enemies with a bow while my summons fought up close

[Faerador]

Monk eredeti hozzászólása:

That's why I would like to repeat a question I asked in my previous post, with a little modification: Why should a specific playstyle be viable in all situations and against all bosses, when the game allows to flexibly adapt playstyles to situations/bosses?
As I mentioned before, I very much prefer to summon creatures to do the fighting for me, but as bosses fight in different ways, how can I expect to triumph if I fight the same way all the time?!

And also, follow-up questions: If there were just "four playstyles" as mentioned at least once throughout this topic, which of those would the following equipment set fit into? Might it be, that there are just four damage types for ease of game mechanics, but actually dozens of playstyles, some of them even based on equipment available quite early in the game?

More than once I've equipped clothes synergizing with summons, a shield for additional armor, trinkets synergizing with either the summons or with ranged weapons, and then shot at enemies with a bow while my summons fought up close

Thanks for your clarification and contribution to the discussion. I see the point you're making and perhaps "classes" is too strong a word but I still see any argument about "classes" per se as I use it as pedantic quibbling. However, the question gets a simplistic answer that you should probably expect, as no one is hybridizing armor sets; it's just not worthwhile to use an armor piece from one set with pieces from other sets, given set bonuses. So, to answer your question from my perspective:

If you're wearing a Summon set of armor and your primary mode of damage is using summons, then whether you're also supplementing said damage with a gun, a wand, or a sword, your primary class would then be summon, and I'd deign say you're a summoner.

While I understand that hybrid play is allowed and even expected, especially in light of the Ancient Fossil armor, in general your armor set bonus will dictate your main playstyle, with the exception of Ancient Fossil which is the only current armor that seems to directly support a true hybrid style with its set bonus arguably working for every other type of damage (though this hasn't been confirmed). No one is running around in summon armor just using guns, for example. If you're dressed in a particular armor, odds are that's the main way you deal damage.

And you pay a heavy price for using the one "hybrid" set we do have, given Ancient Fossil armor's vastly reduced damage absorption potential from Glacial. In addition, the set is also the sole exception to the "rule," which further seems to reinforce the idea that there are generally four different playstyles, as supported by the game's own weapons, armor, enchantment system, etc.

Now, when I'm not playing a specific class, I too like wearing summon gear and using a summon while riding around on my mount using a gun during boss battles, doing what I can with damage while I mainly dodge and manage my summons. However, I still wouldn't classify myself as a ranger. It's not my main class. It's obviously my attempt at supplementing my main damage mode during longer fights. While out mining and exploring, I'm generally content to let my summons do the work while I mine and pilfer.

I also refer to these issues in isolation. Maybe you don't notice the drawbacks of melee if you're playing hybrid anyway, but if you're restricting yourself to a particular class, you're going to notice its drawbacks more easily. Frankly, I like playing a specific "class" or character. "Sam the Summoner," or "Nora the Knight," or whatever. It's a fun way to add some extra immersion. And Sam is a moron with a sword. He just doesn't know how to use one (or fire a bow or shoot a gun, etc).

I would do the same in Terraria, limiting myself only to a melee build, or only a mage build, etc. In that sense, I hope the game remains balanced enough for each of the different classes to be solely viable in and of itself. Maybe that's asking too much from this game; maybe that's not the dev's intention. However, up to this point, it has sure seemed like the dev was trying to maintain that balance, so I don't think I'm too deranged for wanting to speak to that balance at a particular point in the game where I feel melee falls behind the other damage modes.

[Faerador]

Further, if you think about it, the summoning playstyle alone is the only one that really allows for true, simultaneous multiclassing. You can't use a gun and a glaive at the same time, for example; you have to choose one or the other at any given moment. Not to say you can't switch between ranged and close weapons in the heat of battle, but why would you? There are maybe 4 enemies in the entire game, all bosses, where switching from a ranged approach to a close approach (or vice versa) multiple times across the course of the fight has any merit. It supports the opinion I was expressing earlier: that the Ancient Fossil set is mostly gimmicky and niche. Ironically, that's the one synergy the Ancient Fossil set doesn't allow, as summoning has its own hat in the set.

Monk eredeti hozzászólása:

As far as I remember correctly, I've used Tungsten clothing with Sturdy enchantments whenever I felt the need for high armor values, even when facing Sage and Grit, especially as its bonus disables all knockback. With this, I was able to almost stand in oneplace while swinging the Cryo Glaive that dropped from the Cryo Queen, which was the same approach I used for the Pest Warden earlier on.

This isn't the point where I was questioning melee, as I was specifically referencing my own lack of skill with melee against the Fallen Wizard fight specifically. I also made mention of having beaten that fight without the Sturdy enchantments on the other three classes, and that it seemed wrong that a melee class would be the only class to have to sacrifice other enchantments for specifically defense enchantments when none of the other classes had to. (Isn't this the opinion that got us sidetracked on pedantics of "class" to begin with?) It was my main gripe as to why melee doesn't really feel like melee.

Monk eredeti hozzászólása:

And also, follow-up questions: If there were just "four playstyles" as mentioned at least once throughout this topic, which of those would the following equipment set fit into? Might it be, that there are just four damage types for ease of game mechanics, but actually dozens of playstyles, some of them even based on equipment available quite early in the game?

This was kind of why I tried using the idea of "classes" rather than "playstyle." To my thinking, there are four specific ways of dealing damage, four classes from which to choose. How you handle your playstyle is up to you; you choose the weapons you want to use and how you want to fight. But then the conversation got lost in the semantics of my use of "class." Sometimes there's just no pleasing people, which is why I get rather short-tempered when it seems like the merits of a conversation are being sidetracked by pedantics.

But this also speaks to the additional observation above: the conversation about hybridizing is really only applicable to summoning damage + (something else), as there is no way to do two other different types of damage simultaneously anyway. It doesn't even apply to the one case where it would work well! The Ancient Fossil armor just gives you the versatility of being able to switch amongst the other three damage types without having to sacrifice your set bonus.

If I'm in a game where my character isn't restricted to a particular class of weapons, I still don't get much use from it. I have other proven ways of beating the bosses that don't rely on Ancient Fossil, which is good because I'm not great at glass cannon roles anyway, so it'd only be good during the exploration/building portions of the game. However, in that portion of the game, if I weren't restricted on classes anyway, I'd just use summoning because it's a "release and forget" way of managing mobs, perfect for the situations when you're exploring and building. All this supports why I think Ancient Fossil is niche.

It also fosters my desire for more armor variety. Frankly, if you think about it, more pre-Incursion options for all four classes would be nice. That we only have three options each in the end-game push to Incursion seems, as I said, lackluster.

[Monk]

So I might have ended up in a hybrid ... "thingy" ... just because of my personal preference for summoning, which then influenced my view on the whole equipment topic, simply as I had more options to mix and match clothing, trinkets and additional weapons? You have a very good point there
Based on this, I most probably won't be able to provide anything helpful to this topic any more, or maybe even didn't do so up to this point, as I tend to hybridize my equipment in varying degrees in similar games each and every time...