COMPLAINT

[rodolfoxmen]

In my opinion, melee is made very weak and it is very difficult to tank with melee. Although there should be a serious defense difference between mages and melee, there is a very small difference. In short, I would appreciate it if you could buff melee a little. Thank you in advance.

[Elphame_Gold]

Me just being curious, what changes would you suggest made? I main melee, and would love to hear some ideas.

What is your normal loadout? armor and weapon preferences?

[Neltera]

if you want to tank use a shield in the active trinket slot and the dodge feather on demand on your hotbar, have high armor and hp regen, enhance it with buffs.

[Dix Dark]

Yeah, more defense for melee armor set would be nice, the current difference doesn't really worth trying it
(ranged melee, like carapace dagger and boomerangs + summon works the best for me)

[Neltera]

i red some opinions about melee and played it a bit and found it very strong. shields made the difference.

[Faerador]

The point OP is making, MAGIC armor should not be stronger than MELEE armor, period. The Black Widow robe set is more defensive (21/25/17 for head, body, and feet respectively) than pretty much every other armor, barring what you can finally make when you unlock incursions. The penultimate melee armor needs MUCH better defense.

It's pretty lackluster to go to your wardrobe to equip a melee set, and your options are to use Glacial (20/24/16 respectively) or Ancient Fossil Armor (16/18/14), unless you want to regress all the way back to Tungsten (19/23/16 respectively) but that's not any better than Glacial anyway. Shields should not be the answer because ANY class can equip a shield. I shouldn't need to equip a shield as a MELEE build to make up the armor difference against a MAGE class.

[Faerador]

Originally posted by Elphame_Gold:

Me just being curious, what changes would you suggest made? I main melee, and would love to hear some ideas.

As I see it, there are really only 3 late-game melee options before incursions: Tungsten, Glacial, and Ancient Fossil. Ancient Fossil is gimmicky, so it doesn't really count as a TRUE melee set upgrade; it's more of a side-grade. That's pretty lacking. Also, the later options just don't differentiate themselves that much from the other 3 builds, despite being far more vulnerable defensively. I already mentioned that the Widow magic set is far superior in terms of raw defense to any of the other sets pre-incursion. That's just wrong.

Case in point: I cannot beat the Fallen Wizard in melee combat, but I can destroy him with magic, I can beat him fairly easily with summons, and I can beat him well enough with ranged. Granted, I could probably fare far better if I respec'ed all my armor and trinkets from "Precise" to "Sturdy." However, I didn't have to do that for the other 3 builds, so why am I forced to do that for melee?? Melee of all classes, the class that should be able to tank damage.

As far as changes I'd propose, we need a melee option helmet with the Mycelium set that has high defense (+21 at least), and the Mycelium chest and pants should get a +1 or +2 each. Sad to say, but the Widow set might also need a bit of a nerf: -1 to each of the pieces, perhaps.

At least, that's my opinion on the state of early access melee so far.

As far as the build I run, it's generally Glacial. All gear has Precise. Trinkets are generally: Balanced Frostfire Foci, Bone Hilt, Frenzy Orb, Ninjas [sic.] Mark, and Frozen Soul for the Fallen Wizard. I've also traded out Ninjas Mark for Assassin's Cowl to see if the extra crit helps at the expense of attack mobility. Other suggestions would be helpful, maybe? Also, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the melee, given you probably main it more than me.

Edit: This is pre-incursion mind you, relative to where I propose changes be made. I don't yet have feedback on post-incursion stuff and how it balances.

[Neltera]

i still dont get it - so i can reduce incomming damage by more then 60% and in addition i get a lot more dmg andmovement speed with ancient armor? i believe myp point stands still - shields make the difference.

[Faerador]

Originally posted by Neltera:

i still don't get it - so i can reduce incoming damage by more then 60% and in addition i get a lot more dmg and movement speed with ancient armor? i believe my point stands still - shields make the difference.

And again, let me reiterate, but more clearly because I'm not sure you get the distinction: ANY CLASS can equip a shield. Having a shield equipped is not an exclusive benefit of the melee class. Hence, the main point in question still stands: magic armor shouldn't have more defense than melee armor at the same tier.

I'm not trying to say shields aren't good; they absolutely are. But I get even more benefit from a shield as a summoner than I do as a melee class, in some ways, in that I don't have to sacrifice much DPS while I block. I just have to manage stamina.

So I'm not sure why you keep insisting that shields make the difference. If you're talking about general gameplay, shields definitely have their uses and can make a difference. If you're talking about making the melee class more viable, shields can definitely make a difference there, too. But shields can also make a difference for my ranger class, my summoner class, and my magician class. The existence of shields doesn't negate the fundamental opinion I was expressing: magic armor shouldn't have more defense than melee armor at the same tier.

But well, you know, that's just, like uh... my opinion, man.

[Elphame_Gold]

Pre incursion, I used glacial armor as well. I have always put sturdy on everything though.
72 defense with just glacial armor with sturdy, plus all the trinkets with sturdy, puts me up to 104 defense pre-incursion.
I use Shell of Retribution for my active trinket slot, then my 6 trinket slots are the following:

Hysteria Tablet
Explorer Satchel
Balanced Frostfire Foci
Frenzy Orb
Ninja's Mark
Frozen Soul

Hysteria Tablet allows 3 summons in melee build, they put a decent amount of work in.

As for changes, tbh I dont have anything to contribute. I admit i havent allowed myself to put much thought into it, as ive enjoyed melee so much already. I'll think about that and get back to you.

[Neltera]

Originally posted by Faerador:

Originally posted by Neltera:

i still don't get it - so i can reduce incoming damage by more then 60% and in addition i get a lot more dmg and movement speed with ancient armor? i believe my point stands still - shields make the difference.

And again, let me reiterate, but more clearly because I'm not sure you get the distinction: ANY CLASS can equip a shield. Having a shield equipped is not an exclusive benefit of the melee class. Hence, the main point in question still stands: magic armor shouldn't have more defense than melee armor at the same tier.

I'm not trying to say shields aren't good; they absolutely are. But I get even more benefit from a shield as a summoner than I do as a melee class, in some ways, in that I don't have to sacrifice much DPS while I block. I just have to manage stamina.

So I'm not sure why you keep insisting that shields make the difference. If you're talking about general gameplay, shields definitely have their uses and can make a difference. If you're talking about making the melee class more viable, shields can definitely make a difference there, too. But shields can also make a difference for my ranger class, my summoner class, and my magician class. The existence of shields doesn't negate the fundamental opinion I was expressing: magic armor shouldn't have more defense than melee armor at the same tier.

But well, you know, that's just, like uh... my opinion, man.

this might be surprising, but there are no actual classes in necesse.
your idea of "more viable" is weird to me. do you know what you like? if so please elaborate in detail.

[Faerador]

Originally posted by Neltera:

this might be surprising, but there are no actual classes in necesse.
your idea of "more viable" is weird to me. do you know what you like? if so please elaborate in detail.

You have noticed that the weapons are marked "melee," "ranged," "magic," or "summon," with corresponding enchantments, and that armors come in sets explicit to those four types? That's what I mean when I say "classes."

Frankly, I'm starting to think you're just trolling.

[Monk]

As far as I know, the only place where classes are actually mentioned, is the wiki. The weapons are merely "classified" by damage type and characteristics: They either create permanent or semi-permanent creatures, use ammo to fire, use mana to ... do things, or are physically swung/thrown at enemies
The same damage types are also used for bonuses on some clothing sets, but does that really define classes or does this only happen in one's head?

More than once I've equipped clothes synergizing with summons, a shield for additional armor, trinkets synergizing with either the summons or with ranged weapons, and then shot at enemies with a bow while my summons fought up close. Even more so, I often switched loadouts depending on the boss I fought, stronger armor and glaives against worm-type bosses, more mobility and homing weapons against speedier bosses, etc.
Why should a specific playstyle be viable in all situations and against all bosses? I love summoning and swarming everything with minions, so I very much understand the expectation that a personally preferred playstyle should carry one through a whole game, but, to be honest, those expectations mostly originate from playing games that actually have classes, such as Diablo-type games

I would also question the assumption that new clothes need to improve upon previously available clothing in sheer armor values. As long as new equipment feels powerful and allows to vary playstyles in certain ways, I'm fine with it. For example, fighting in melee doesn't necessarily require high armor values, as long as the player is able to slay enemies faster than they slay the player, which can very well be achieved with higher damage bonuses instead

[ElDudorino]

I don't generally say "classes" in games like Necesse or Terraria either because it's really just a gear loadout, but I know what people mean when they say it so I don't feel the need to be pedantic about it.

Also, you can only mix and match so much because your armor set will always be geared towards one style. So you do inevitably choose gear with armor sets in mind.

That said, Necesse and Terraria both have a lot of "melee" weapons that aren't melee weapons. So I just don't use weapons like the Cutlass that require standing right next to the enemy and instead use "melee" weapons that work from range and then I'm effectively a ranged attacker anyway. So I've never really had a problem with "melee" builds other than that certain weapons are just useless to me due to not having a ranged component.

Anyway, mages now have mana to deal with which is currently quite harsh so maybe they *do* need the armor more than swordsfolk.

[Faerador]

Originally posted by Neltera:

i red some opinions about melee and played it a bit and found it very strong. shields made the difference.

Neltera's very first comment referenced what sounded like the typical class tropes, so I thought we had a shared understanding of what was meant by using "melee," at least.

Originally posted by Monk:

The weapons are merely "classified" by damage type and characteristics. The same damage types are also used for bonuses on some clothing sets.

I often switched loadouts depending on the boss I fought, stronger armor and glaives against worm-type bosses, more mobility and homing weapons against speedier bosses, etc.

For example, fighting in melee doesn't necessarily require high armor values, as long as the player is able to slay enemies faster than they slay the player, which can very well be achieved with higher damage bonuses instead.

Your own pedantic comment about there not being classes even references those same tropes, and you also explicitly use the word "melee." While I wasn't explicit in defining "class," I was under the impression that "melee" had a shared understanding, at least, and by extension the other three labels. They are literally used on all weapons and armor to generalize the four different playstyles and are even codified in the enchantment system. I didn't think it was that much of a stretch to say "class." But as you intend to argue (and disingenuously, I might add) rather than have a nice conversation, I'll try not to expect the principle of charity from your critique of any comments I make in the future.

Back to the point, and again, I'm specifically referencing the game during the "deep cave" portion up to the new incursions. I'm also assuming all other things as equal (access to trinkets and potions, for example):

Originally posted by Monk:

As long as new equipment feels powerful and allows to vary playstyles in certain ways, I'm fine with it.

I really don't feel that the Ancient Fossil set "feels powerful." It feels like a side-grade to me, a gimmick set that's only useful in niche settings. It's also generic for three of the four "playstyles" (since you seem to take offense at my use of "classes"). Also, for having 6 different combinations of deep cave metals and other crafting ingredient sets (tungsten, glacial, mycelium, and ancient fossil, plus bone/ectoplasm and spider gland/silk), our armor options feel pretty lackluster across the board. Counting Ancient Fossil (which again is exactly the same for three of the four playstyles), we have three different sets for each.

However, while that limitation doesn't feel so limiting for ranged, summon, or especially magic, it feels extremely stifling to melee for me. As I said before, while you ostensibly have 3 melee armor options, you really only have two, as Glacial is a pure upgrade to Tungsten. But then, I feel like you only really have one option, as again, the Ancient Fossil is gimmicky and niche to me. So in essence, your last melee upgrade is at the second deep cave, unless you like playing melee like a glass cannon in the Ancient Fossil.

Which doesn't sound very much like melee, and brings me to my second point: I don't feel like "melee" plays like "melee" should. You can't really tank any more damage than any other class, despite the limitations of using melee weapons (short range forcing you to engage in close quarters). Most players doing that kind of fighting are using one of the composite weapons, one with a melee swing but that shoots a projectile and is classified "ranged" technically, anyway.

But again, as I expressed pretty clearly at the end of my last comment, all of that was just my opinion, and I'm not trying to take away from how anyone else plays. I'm not expecting everyone to play like me or to have the same general complaints as me, either. In fact, I was trying to be welcoming to conversation and get others' legitimate opinions. I'm not interested in engaging further with disingenuous comments trying to side-rail discussion in order to win imaginary internet points.

[Elphame_Gold]

Faerador, Just curious, with this same line of thought, whats your opninion about the latest armor additions to the game? in regards to balancing, how do they feel to you? I been really enjoying the nightsteel armor with the melee helmet. I may even ditch the sturdy enchants and go for keen.