Rare / Locked / Hidden Parts?

[Khan]

Are there some specific parts which have extra unlock conditions, or only drop on certain missions (more specific than just the "tier' system), or just have much lower-than-normal drop chance than other parts of the same tier?

For example, I currently have 6/7 Tier 0 Shoulder weapons (and several T1, since I'm at Mission 9 right now), and at least 4x copies of each of those 6 weapons (and for some almost 10x), with a total of at least 40 (and that's just the ones I haven't sold), but I have never once seen that supposed 7th weapon. The probability of that happening by random chance - getting 40 Tier 0 Shoulder Weapon drops with 40/40 weapon #1-6 and 0/40 of #7 - is less than 0.21% (exactly (6/7)^40 = 0.00209...), and if you include the (at least - I've lost track) extra 20 or so duplicates which I have sold off or cash then the chances are less than 0.01% (exactly (6/7)^60 = 9.62....e-5). And if it was just T0 shoulder weapons then I could just be unlucky (1 in 10,000 isn't that extreme), but I have the same situation in almost every category for T0 parts (not even counting the extra copies I've sold off):

11 / 13 Hand weapons (at least 3x of each, total around 60, plus many more sold off)
6 / 7 Shoulder weapons (at least 4x of each, total around 40)
12 / 14 Passive Modules (at least 3x of most of them, except for 2 with 1x each)
6 / 7 Active Modules (at least 3x of most, over 20 overall)
4 / 5 Leg Equipment (only 1x Ammo, at least 3x each of the others)
8 / 9 Shoulder Equipment (at least 3-5x of most, 1x turrets, 2x lights)
3 / 4 Mech Legs (2-3x of each)
6 / 7 Mech Bottoms (2-4x of each)
4 / 5 Mech Arms (only 1x Epiroth H, 3-4x each of the others)
9 / 9 Mech Torsos (all, but only 1x Epiroth-12 and Antioch A1, 3-5x for the rest)
9 / 11 Mech Heads (only 1x Stormwolf A, 3-5x each of the rest)

(these numbers don't include duplicate parts I've sold for cash, but that would only make the numbers even more lopsided, since only sell extras if I have more than 3x for mech parts, 4x for weapons or equipment, or 6x for modules; and, yes, I noticed that there are at least 3 different versions of "CAP-DF1" with different stats but the same name, and I have at least 3x of each one...)

Any one or even two of these could maybe be explained by chance, but the probability of all of these gaps occurring simultaneously (plus the very lopsided ratios of some of the parts I do have) is about as likely as 1000 rolls of a supposedly fair standard 6-sided die never once rolling a 5 (and less than 20 times rolling a 2). The only logical conclusion is that all parts of the same tier and type are not dropped equally.

The situation is similar so far for T1 hand and shoulder weapons, though for some other categories I still have around half or less, but often very unevenly (like only 5/15 Torsos and only 3/6 Bottoms but at least 2-3x of each).

[Chitanda Eru]

I'm starting to feel this might be the case because I have parts with only 1 copy and never got it ever again. That or they have a ludicrously low drop chance.

[Khan]

Originally posted by Moodydata:

Can confirm that the way it works is, as you progress through the game, towards the end you will get more T2 stuff, at the start you obviously get more T0 and T1, its done to scale with the game because some T2 stuff flat out breaks the game anyway (looking at you S90s), So if your after more T1, try playing the middle of the campaign roughly, anything after I think mission 12 gives T2 stuff

Originally posted by Khan:

Are there some specific parts which have extra unlock conditions, or only drop on certain missions (more specific than just the "tier' system), or just have much lower-than-normal drop chance than other parts of the same tier?

You should read more carefully before replying.

[Overfiend1986]

Yeah I noticed this. Honestly seems bugged, some weapons do not drop no matter how many t2 missions I've played.

[Khan]

I was thinking more along the lines of "this part only drops from Mission 11", or "this part can only appear if you have beaten Mission 9", or simply "this part is 'rare' and has only 1/20 of the normal drop chance for that tier". Or perhaps "this part is 'rare' and only drops after wave #30 in tier 1 raid missions"

If it was really just a matter of part tier, then simply repeating for example Raid 4 a dozen times and getting 1200 Tier 1 drops should result in having a full catalog of all Tier 1 parts with an average of around 8 copies of each one. Instead what actually happens is you get dozens of copies of some Tier 1 parts and 0 copies of certain other Tier 1 parts.

Also, when you say that "raids obviously give a wider range of parts", are you saying that some parts (of the same tier) only drop in raids, or only after a certain point in raids, and rarely or never from campaign missions? Or are you just saying that raids will (supposedly) start dropping loot from the next tier up if you go enough waves?

(In particular I have heard tales of a supposed Tier 1 laser beam rifle...)

[Chitanda Eru]

Originally posted by Khan:

I was thinking more along the lines of "this part only drops from Mission 11", or "this part can only appear if you have beaten Mission 9", or simply "this part is 'rare' and has only 1/20 of the normal drop chance for that tier". Or perhaps "this part is 'rare' and only drops after wave #30 in tier 1 raid missions"

If it was really just a matter of part tier, then simply repeating for example Raid 4 a dozen times and getting 1200 Tier 1 drops should result in having a full catalog of all Tier 1 parts with an average of around 8 copies of each one. Instead what actually happens is you get dozens of copies of some Tier 1 parts and 0 copies of certain other Tier 1 parts.

Also, when you say that "raids obviously give a wider range of parts", are you saying that some parts (of the same tier) only drop in raids, or only after a certain point in raids, and rarely or never from campaign missions? Or are you just saying that raids will (supposedly) start dropping loot from the next tier up if you go enough waves?

(In particular I have heard tales of a supposed Tier 1 laser beam rifle...)

T1 Beam Rifle I can think of is the Star Fire that I have 2 of currently on one of my saves.

[Khan]

I've seen that name on the forums, but i've never seen it in game. Even though I have over 100 Tier 1 hand weapons, they are all copies of the same 12 weapons, and I have never once seen the Starfire or the other two (supposedly there are 15 in total). The chances of that if all parts of the same tier are equally common is less than one in a million (about 0.2 in a billion).

Either there is some extra condition (like beating Mission 9 or something after it) for these weapons to appear, or they have a super-low drop chance compared to other weapons of the same tier. Or maybe the game is just deciding (perhaps randomly for each new game?) that certain parts are not going to show up in this playthrough?

For reference, do you have all 15/15 Tier 1 weapons, or are you still missing some? If so, which ones do you have, and how many of each?

[Moodydata]

Just messaged him, if you hang on for a little bit, he should respond to the question ^_^

[gintoki_madao]

Hi!
There are no hidden/locked parts besides the Ragnarok Laser, which is unobtainable trough random drops.
There are a few very rare cases of some fixed items placed in missions - like a flamethrower in Mission 4 I think.

All other parts are dropped totaly randomly. With no differences if its a Mission or a Raid.

Ive seen a few posts about missing parts issues, and I want to adress this problem in the patch that will come with Operation Ascalon DLC

[gintoki_madao]

Originally posted by Khan:

I've seen that name on the forums, but i've never seen it in game. Even though I have over 100 Tier 1 hand weapons, they are all copies of the same 12 weapons, and I have never once seen the Starfire or the other two (supposedly there are 15 in total). The chances of that if all parts of the same tier are equally common is less than one in a million (about 0.2 in a billion).

Either there is some extra condition (like beating Mission 9 or something after it) for these weapons to appear, or they have a super-low drop chance compared to other weapons of the same tier. Or maybe the game is just deciding (perhaps randomly for each new game?) that certain parts are not going to show up in this playthrough?

For reference, do you have all 15/15 Tier 1 weapons, or are you still missing some? If so, which ones do you have, and how many of each?

@Khan
Would it be possible for you to send me your save file on discord or to my email?
http://discord.gg/anGWFaS
I will take a look and check what parts are missing. I assume there might be a bug in the Collection Status, or in the random drop system.

[gintoki_madao]

I want to improve random drops in the next patch and make it more liekly to get items that you dont have in your collection yet.

[Khan]

Sorry for the late reply. And it's always nice to see the dev active in the forums.

Originally posted by Moodydata:

Sorry if I am jumping a head or not reading fully through again, I just want to list off what I know in hopes that it will help.

Sorry, but it looks like you didn't read through again. The purpose and function of the tier system is obvious, you get early-game parts from early missions and late-game parts from late-game missions. That isn't the issue. This is about some tier 0 parts being inexplicably far more common / rare than other tier 0 parts, and likewise some tier 1 parts dropping far less often than other tier 1 parts. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens with tier 2 parts, but I can't speak to that firsthand until I figure out how to edit my save file to skip Mission 9. (Did I mention that I have a deep and abiding hatred of missions with hidden fail conditions that depend entirely on super-squishy AI units not dying, especially when the whole mission involves spawning huge waves right on top of you about 10 feet away from the squishy allies, and especially when there is little or no indication of how well you are doing or how many losses you have taken or how close you are to either success or failure?)

Originally posted by gintoki_madao:

Hi!
There are no hidden/locked parts besides the Ragnarok Laser, which is unobtainable trough random drops.
There are a few very rare cases of some fixed items placed in missions - like a flamethrower in Mission 4 I think.

All other parts are dropped totaly randomly. With no differences if its a Mission or a Raid.

Ive seen a few posts about missing parts issues, and I want to adress this problem in the patch that will come with Operation Ascalon DLC

So you are saying that:

1) There is one special weapon which is only used in a certain mission, and is not obtainable at all as part of your regular inventory

2) A few missions have a few non-random pre-placed crates (not ones that drop from enemies) which always contain a specific non-random item

3) Aside from the above, all items of the same tier are supposed to be equally and uniformly randomly obtained from random drops of that tier, with no particular item being more or less rare than any other item of the same tier in random drops

So for example if there are 120 total tier 0 items in the game (the actual number is less, but that's not the point), then each of those items should have exactly a flat 1/120 chance to appear each time you collect a random drop crate from a tier 0 mission, and likewise each tier 1 part should have exactly a 1/(num_total_T1_parts) chance to appear from each random crate obtained from any tier 1 mission, and each tier 2 part should have exactly a 1/(num_total_T2_parts) chance to appear from each random crate collected during any tier 2 mission.

That's how I thought it was supposed to work, but in practice this is not consistent with the distribution of parts I am actually seeing.

On a loosely related note, I have noticed that there are at least three different versions of tier 0 passive modules all called "CAP-DF1" but with different stats and apparently counting as three different items in Collection Status. Is this intended, or are they supposed to have slightly different names?

[Khan]

ADDENDUM:

This does not appear to be an issue with Collection Status, unless that is somehow affecting drop rates of new parts. I have checked my parts list by hand, and in every case my Collection Status agrees with the number of different parts I have in that category. I have noticed only two oddities with Collection Status, and I would not call either one a "bug" per se:

1) The previously mentioned issue with same-named T0 Passive Modules. At first it seemed my Collection Status was counting two more part types than I could see, but then I noticed that some of my CAP-DF1 parts have (slightly) different stats, and closer inspection revealed exactly three different CAP-DF1 parts. Mystery solved.

2) Collection Status does not seem to count parts currently equipped on your mech, if you have only 1 of that part (or only 2 of a weapon and both equipped, etc.) and no spare copies in inventory. This might well be intended behavior, since currently equipped parts are not visible in the inventory list, and in any case is not a problem.

If you want to bias drop rates somewhat in favor of unobtained / underobtained parts, a simple way to do that would be giving each random crate something like 80% chance of "just pick any random part of that tier" and 20% chance of "automatically choose whichever part (of that tier) you have the fewest of, chosen randomly if there is a tie". Keep in mind that "part you have the fewest of" rewards should be rolled one at a time and account for previous rewards form the same mission (i.e. if you get two "part you have the fewest of" rewards, then in most cases whatever part you got for the first one should no longer be valid for the second one, although if you get enough crates then then you would start to see repeats as now-second-fewest parts become tied for fewest again). Or you could do this non-randomly to every 5th reward crate, or the first (or last) 20% of all rewards at the end of the mission, or maybe some other ratio than 20%, but the principle is the same.

[gintoki_madao]

Thank you so much for your deep analysis, that will help a lot in implementing fixes. I will make sure to make it right with the DLC patch. If you like hunting for bugs, I will be happy to invite you to beta tests of the DLC when its ready. I want to release the DLC and patch in good state, so aproach like yours is gold

[gintoki_madao]

Really, amazing work

[Khan]

I tried to open the discord link to send you my save file, but I got a message saying Invalid Invite.